Once upon a time......

Get help and share Ideas
Jocool
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Once upon a time......

#1

Post by Jocool »

When I was looking for ideas for my boat I stumbled upon this forum. And having done so, I thought it fair that I share what I have done to my little tub. If you guys are anything like us Down Under, then you would love reading about this kinda stuff and how others do it. Just as a bit of an intro, the original plan called for the addition of a pod to set the motor back enough so that my new hydraulic steering ram would clear the splash well. But as they say, the best laid plans..... :rotfl:

So here goes....

It started of like a lot of things in life...just a simple idea to fix it! :nutkick:

All I wanted to do was fit some hydraulic steering, but after my earlier debacle with cutting the cable prematurely, you would think I had learnt...but I haven't. :banghead: Today I took my boat to Romano to have it measured for the addition of the pod that will fix my steering woes. I had removed half of the floor before I went as I needed to run the hoses for the steering under the floor. You with me so far? :thumbsup:

Let's step back a little.

I have always had a bit of a bow in the floor of the boat in the rear corners. Initially I figured it was just me being a solid muscular mass of beefcake. :banghead: You can see in this photo how the floor does seem to dip a little at the back.
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After getting the floor up on one side of the boat where I wanted the hoses to go, I noticed that there is a wear mark where the floor rubs along the hull when it does flex. So I mentioned it to Romano, and showed him where the floor seemed to sag. It turns out that it wasn't so much my mass, but rather that the floor was unsupported at those spots. there is nearly a metre between the stringers in this shot, and nowhere for the edge of the board to sit.
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So Romano is going to weld in some support to help level it all out. I was looking at changing my floor soon, but this should give it a bit of a rejuvenation and it will hold out a couple more years. :clap: We also discussed a bait board.

I went home and started removing the rest of the floor. Oh boy. :nutkick: To get the floor off, it looked like I would need to remove the console as there is a floor panel under it. But I got away with tilting the console one side at a time.
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And it was a real bugger finding screws buried in the carpet. I found this one buried, right under the edge of the console.
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Once I had gotten the middle section of the floor out, I could see the fuel tank underneath.
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In front of the kill tank were some panels that I also removed. I don't know why, but it seemed like the right thing to do. :skillet: I also unpicked all the pop rivets holding the kill tank in place, so that can be lifted in it's entirety out of the boat if need be.
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And this is the view from the top showing my boat sans floor.
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So to summarise, I wanted to fit new steering. With the help of Romano, I am now getting a pod, fixing my saggy floor, and getting a you beaut bait board. :rotfl:
Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#2

Post by Jocool »

Here are some pictures of the bilge/underfloor area after the floor panels had been lifted. Sorry for the grainyness. :hammer:

This first photo shows the rear section where my underfloor kill tank was situated. This had been a later addition to the boat and was not very practical and hardly ever used. Once I had pulled it out, we could see the multitude of sins beneath it. Note how the strakes have been creased to get it down to a lower level for it to fit under the floor. :hammer:
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This next photo shows what appears to be a crack in the stringer. In actual fact it is where the builder joined to bits of alloy to make the length rather than use a full piece for the stringer. :skillet:
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The metal man started getting serious, and yanked my console!
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With the console out of the way, they could get in with their equipment and go to town.
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And go to town they did......
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pjay9
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Re: Once upon a time......

#3

Post by pjay9 »

Keep the report coming. You are doing a nice presentation. What is the make and particulars of this craft? THX Capt PJ
2009 Raider 185 Pro Fisherman, 2005 90Yamaha, 2012 Yamaha9.9HT, 2008 EzLoader roller, 2004 Dodge TCD dually, 2005/2015 Lance1161
Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#4

Post by Jocool »

I had this boat custom built in 2004 and it has had a couple of transformations. Initially it was a tiller steered boat constructed of 4mm bottom and 3mm sides. The idea was to use it in the rivers and creeks chasing fish on artificials. I then found that I was heading out into bays and the open ocean so decided on forward controls and a console. It transformed the usability and functions of the boat no end.

Then it had the rear splashwell built up as I was getting water into the boat when coming of the plane. I had the front casting platform reduced in size, (losing some storage) and a in floor kill tank added. This tank proved near worthless for what I ahd planned.

Then when I wanted to upgrade the steering, we found that the underfloor area had really deteriorated and I went for the configuration I now have.

This is what the boat initially looked like, and the site for the builder.
http://www.brumbsmarine.com.au/index.php
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I'll have some more pictures and notes up for you later today.
Chaps
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Re: Once upon a time......

#5

Post by Chaps »

Its a real problem . . . you start out wanting to do some little project and before you know it you've got the whole damn boat torn apart :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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aluminumdreamer
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Re: Once upon a time......

#6

Post by aluminumdreamer »

Chaps wrote:Its a real problem . . . you start out wanting to do some little project and before you know it you've got the whole damn boat torn apart :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
No kidding! :banghead: :banghead:

Good looking boat. I love the smaller Aussie boats, I'd like to get my hands on another some day. :deadhorse:

Keep up the good work.

Nate
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goatram
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Re: Once upon a time......

#7

Post by goatram »

Ya fix one thing and that creates a different want that requires a new change to the plan. I am living the dream now.

Keep at and enjoy the pain and pleasure :mrgreen:
John Risser aka goatram
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Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#8

Post by Jocool »

It's always the way. Now...where was I.....

These two photos show what the underfloor area looked like before it was all cut out. Refer to the earlier photo to see the bare bottom of the boat.
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They started with a straight edge right at the back of the deck. This was to be the foundation for my new stringer system. It was all bent up from 2.5mm alloy sheets.
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Once the rear had been established, they could work forward and start laying the new stringers. At this stage they were still not attached to the hull proper.
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This shows the sections used to connect the stringers to the floor of the boat proper.
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The front has received the same treatment, and he will tie the two ends of the boat to form the base for the floor. My fuel tank has been removed and he was looking at repositioning it, but I don't think that will happen. It would mean too much work on the front bulkhead.
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When it was time to put the tank back in place, it was jiggled around to get it back in. With the pick up and breather spouts it made for a relatively tight fit and took a bit of man handling.
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With the tank back in place, it was time to work out the details. Note how the areas where the breather passes through has been trimmed and gusseted to avoid any sharp protrusions contacting any of the fuel lines.
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Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#9

Post by Jocool »

The original brackets that the console was bolted to was salvaged from the old floor and used to position it on the new floor.
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After it had been dummy fitted, gussets were made up for the brackets to be welded permanently to the subframe.
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Once the console had been positioned, the boys hooked in and made the rest of the framework for the flooring. Note that the floor framing was a significant improvement on what was there prior.
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This is a view showing the CC brackets as well as the whole underfloor area.
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The back half of the floor was to be one flat section of checker plate. The front section needed to be slotted to accommodate the frame for the CC. To make a proper fitting sheet, cardboard templates were first made.
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Finally, all the sheets were down.
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Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#10

Post by Jocool »

That was the floor done.

The next thing to do was to set back my motor. As mentioned earlier, this was to allow the use of a side mounted hydraulic ram for my steering. Yes, I know...I should have bought a bullhorn unit. :deadhorse: This is what it looked like before the motor was removed. Note also the height of the splashwell. It doesn't go all the way to the top.
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And this is the pod that was fitted. It's basically a sealed SS box that had a threaded rod welded into it. Unfortunately, it has done nothing but allow the fitting of the steering. It has put the motor at a bad height and I need to remove this and buy myself a jack plate. :hammer:
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With the motor removed, it's quite plain to see how much height was added to my splashwell.
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As far as the structural work was concerned, it was done!

I had also removed the console and had all unnecessary holes welded up and changed the layout of my electronics.
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I also removed some SS grab rails that were originally fitted as they had caused a load of corrosion in the alloy where they were mounted. I had rails fabricated out of alloy and welded in place. The grab rail that went up the length of the console was extended to form a framework to match the windscreen, and a plate welded across the top for the mounting of antennas, lights and other equipment.
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I then had the console painted in Diamond White before returning it to the boat.
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And there you have it! All the major work has been completed, including a complete rewire and addition of an automatic battery system. there are still some things that need to be added, such as a work light or two for night work. And I need to replace a set of LED's that were faulty straight from the box. :hammer:

As mentioned earlier, I am looking at a jack plate as I have lost about 100 revs from this operation. A jack plate would have solved all my issues from the beginning. I hope you enjoyed my efforts, and if anyone has any questions, just ask. :thumbsup:
pjay9
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Re: Once upon a time......

#11

Post by pjay9 »

Looks good...show us some pics of the completed vessel and details overall. Keep up the good work that you have done so far. Nice report! Capt PJ
2009 Raider 185 Pro Fisherman, 2005 90Yamaha, 2012 Yamaha9.9HT, 2008 EzLoader roller, 2004 Dodge TCD dually, 2005/2015 Lance1161
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JETTYWOLF
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Re: Once upon a time......

#12

Post by JETTYWOLF »

Great report of all that work.

How about a photo of the completely done, ready for the fish.

Burley Bucket.....yes. Ya can't believe how Americans just don't or won't adopt the burley bucket theory.
Fresh chum, right out the stern. :thumbsup:
Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#13

Post by Jocool »

JETTYWOLF wrote: Burley Bucket.....yes. Ya can't believe how Americans just don't or won't adopt the burley bucket theory.
Fresh chum, right out the stern. :thumbsup:
Burley buckets are the shnizzle! So versatile that it's awesome to have one. Throw any old fish frames and guts in there to disperse slowly and form a nice little slick behind the boat to attract fish. Maybe in the States you guys are too hung up on catching the big one. :rotfl: And it's great to throw a fish in there to bleed if you don't want it all over your carpet deck. Oh...hang on... I fitted an alloy deck. :skillet:

Since finalising all this, I have fished the boat a few times and found that I was really concerned about the reduced revs, and the fact that the motor sat a lot lower in the water. At rest, the bottom of the cowl would be submerged by part of the swell when it rose. So I had to do something!

And a jackplate was the answer.

I procured a Jack plate for my boat. Rather than stuff around with the pod, I had my cousin buy me a jack plate. It is the Bob's Machine Shop 4 in 1 convertible that allows differing heights, setbacks and angles to fitting the motor.

This instantly fixed my height issue. When I had the pod on, I found that I had lost 100RPM from my already low WOT revs. This should help. I have set it at about an inch and a half above the keel.
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The set back is more than enough to allow me to clear the splash well so that the steering ram doesn't interfere.
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I still have a fair bit of range if needed to either drop, or raise the motor. I don't anticipate I will be playing with it too much. Just a couple of tweaks if needed to get it 100%
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You can see how far it has set the motor back from the transom. (5 inches)
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I left the angle the same, but I can tuck it in 6 degrees if it is warranted. I don't think I will need it, but it's available to me.
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Now I just have to go out and test it after I bleed the steering...again.! :hammer: I only just finished fitting it this afternoon so I have yet to run it in the new configuration. And with the weather here being what it is, and the fact that work has got me screwed down for a while, I don't anticipate getting out for a ride for about a fortnight. :banghead:
pjay9
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Re: Once upon a time......

#14

Post by pjay9 »

Will be interesting to see the results. How far is the leading edge of lower unit from the transom at the keel level where you showed the 1 1/2 inch rise? I don't know if your RPM will change but your performance should! And thusly the RPM probably will too! Waiting to hear. Capt PJ
2009 Raider 185 Pro Fisherman, 2005 90Yamaha, 2012 Yamaha9.9HT, 2008 EzLoader roller, 2004 Dodge TCD dually, 2005/2015 Lance1161
trouty
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Re: Once upon a time......

#15

Post by trouty »

Man that scares me.

I'm not deliberately looking to make a new online enemy, I have hundreds enough already.
How to say this politely?
You've done a LOT of hard work and done it well.

What it lacked was a decent design to start with.
There is something fundamentally wrong with your boat that you haven't cured with all your work.
The bottom of the hull flexes - that's visible where the timber floor rubs on the bottom sheets at the chine area.
It's also visible with the fatigue cracks in some of the underfloor welds.

What is the fundamental build problem?

Well - you have lovely long full length stringers - but not a single transverse frame (strong back) in sight - and that's why your hull bottom flexes!.

I too built a custom built alloy boat - but the difference?

Mine was designed by a naval architect who knows how boats should be designed and built.

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See? A Boat should have stringers AND TRANSVERSE FRAMES!

That's whats missing in your boat and while you had it apart you didn't do anything to change that - the floors now well supported but the full length stringers aren't connected to the floor transverse cross members in any way so that hull bottom will still flex - just as it always has - on the trailer and in the water.

One day when it fails, the boat will sink - and could well take you with it.

What worries me, is that this is presented on a US boating forum as "the way boats are built down under" & as best I know - this one is more the exception, rather than the rule.

Mine - was put thru commercial passenger survey by qualified govt marine surveyors - including approving the plans before construction.

If it were me - I'd rip up that floor and go back to scratch - start with a fundamentally correct design including transverse frames to support the bottom from flexing the way it is now.

I know that's NOT probably what you want to hear but - whats the alternative?... lose a new member at sea to a bad design/built boat?

As it happens I once had a work colleague (and two of his fishing buddies) lost at sea for just that reason - an alloy boat hull repaired - the repair failed and the vessel sank in less than 1 minute.

He and his two buddies died overnight of hypothermia because they didn't have an epirb, so couldn't be located at night - their wives reported them overdue in the afternoon - a search ensued - but they weren't found before nightfall and the search was thus called off overnight, until dawn the next day!

The next morning a media chopper on the way to the town spotted the lone survivor and hauled him outta the sea only an hour or so before death from hypothermia, he was the 4th member of the fishing party - and rather obese hence his ability to survive longer than his 3 slightly built companions who all passed away one bye one during the night.

The survivor gave all the details of the repair failure and sinking & subsequent deaths at the coronial inquiry, they didn't have time to get out a radio mayday, no flotation in the boat (didn't see any of that in this vessel either) so it sank within 60 seconds and no Epirb either.

Any of those things might have altered the outcome.
So things like this matter to me - they are close to home, which is why i open my mouth when probably I shouldn't.
I don't make apologies for it - there's little room for such mistakes on the ocean - the sea is an unforgiving mistress!.

Best of luck with your boat, I think its un-seaworthy myself, unless you take steps to fix the above omissions.

Sorry to be critical and the bearer of bad news. Safety dictates it needs to be said IMHO & experience.

Oh - I'm a 100 tonne master, so well qualified to make these comments.

Cheers!
Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#16

Post by Jocool »

Always the long winded sod aren't ya Trouty! :nutkick:

I never once presented my boat as the way things are done. I never said my boat was perfect. I do have floatation but didn't see the need to show the stash of Microlen foam stashed below decks. The amount of flex in the floor panels was due to the fact that it wasn't supported at all for a long span of deck. The fact that the boat doesn't have

Why the mess am I answering to you? :banghead: :hammer:
trouty
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Re: Once upon a time......

#17

Post by trouty »

Why the mess am I answering to you?
Same reason every one else does - coz you know I'm right and feel the need to defend yourself.

Truths a b!atch ain't it! :rotfl:

Cheers
Jocool
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Re: Once upon a time......

#18

Post by Jocool »

Truth is, I don't give a rats bum what you think.

Seeya.
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goatram
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Re: Once upon a time......

#19

Post by goatram »

The repairs look Functional and will work. I missed the bait chumming part and will have to go back later today and reread it. As to others finding fault in any and all mods done to our boats I say leave it alone. Work was accomplished and it's done. Cost you a pretty penny or two to. Enjoy the fishing and start planning on the next mod when you get the time.

On the Bloodydecks .com Washington site I had a lot of Engineers saying that my boat would be top heavy and the CG would be wrong. Since then the boat runs well and has no issues and it looks different and I have yet to find anyone say it is ugly. Lot of Joe's want to do the same for our wet climate. I do not want to go into Business doing the work. I get paid well in my profession as a Aircraft Mechanic/Inspector and I don't work that hard either. :soap:
John Risser aka goatram
33' RBW with twin 250 Hondas (Aliens)
2015 Ford F350 Dually
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trouty
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Re: Once upon a time......

#20

Post by trouty »

I have yet to find anyone say it is ugly
Careful what you wish for! :rotfl:

Cheers!
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goatram
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Re: Once upon a time......

#21

Post by goatram »

Being from down under you would have to stand on your head to pass judgment would you not? :highfive: :mrgreen:


I did see stringers ever few inches in the pictures. My boat had only two frames below the floor with two 10" box stringers running from the front bulkhead at the helm to the stern and attached to the stern with 3" Long piece of angle. with no additional stringers. The frames do not run full width side to side just to the inside of the box. it lives so will his boat.
Last edited by goatram on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Risser aka goatram
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Re: Once upon a time......

#22

Post by trouty »

it lives so will his boat.
It's not his boat life I'm worried about, it's his passengers lives!

Cheers!
pjay9
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Re: Once upon a time......

#23

Post by pjay9 »

Every boat is a pile of compromises...Even the Sub-chapter T and S boats. Gosh you'd be amazed at the build requirements on the Skipperliners I run. It looks scary! A water tank was held in place by two steel pallet binding straps used to ship cargo...they broke...NO Doo-doo!! I have done some work to secure that tank and I have to say it is far superior to the original system...yet I am not pleased with the results...it has held for 4 years now, so maybe I did something right and has gone thru COI...I guess they liked it!

So my point is we all do our best and that is that...suggestions are always valuable and should be considered, but the way it is said may be what is in question, JMHO!!! Capt PJ

PLS no response required, I am just not up to a flogging today! I bit under the weather. And if I had to reply I might become a bit of a UGLY Captain to say the least....not in my nature! :skipper:
2009 Raider 185 Pro Fisherman, 2005 90Yamaha, 2012 Yamaha9.9HT, 2008 EzLoader roller, 2004 Dodge TCD dually, 2005/2015 Lance1161
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Re: Once upon a time......

#24

Post by kmorin »

Trouty, I do see some of the points in your post about the overall design, of the boat's repair project. The 'egg crate' or final composite bottom of the boat you show in the images has a deeper overall structure and more framing elements combined into what looks like a more rigid overall welded hull. However, the space frame of truss version in the modifications isn't weak/fragile/ or dangerous.

What I also see is the new longs as main deck members in the repaired boat seem to have been welded by plate 'legs' to the existing hull stringers or longs. This means the overall depth of the final 'as welded' repaired/modified hull frame structure is the original stringers, (plus) combined with the new press formed stringers' depth AND (plus) the added depth of the space between them.

To do a beam deflection or bending analysis of the 'trusses' formed by the repair shown you'd need to use the entire depth and the top press formed beams' section as part of the calc. What results is a much stiffer section than would be first guessed or estimated.

I don't agree that small welded boats need regular transverse frames to survive or to be adequately strong, because the deck panel forms a sandwich with the bottom's framing. Panel deflection of a sandwich with a bottom panel (hull bottom) stringers all one direction (longs or webbed trussing along the keel axis) and a top panel (deck) is very different than an analysis of the support of the bottom panel without the deck.

Just as a quick picture the difference between a C channel, legs up and a rectangular box beam for the same span and deflection. That forth side makes a world of difference compared to the open leg/face - and of course I'd discounting webbing framing in this example to make the two overall shapes the focus of the remark.

One support framing calculation comes from single panel deflection support - bottom stiffness; the other is a composite 'box' beam of some length and width. In my experience building various welded aluminum boats of approximately the class shown; I've used several different bottom framing combinations including one's somewhat similar to that shown on this thread.

If I were worried about the modifications it would be for the lack of cleaning of the original surface contaminants by acid etching the bilges before work began, and making sure the bilges were painted to avoid further corrosion from not being sealed- but I don't see the final structure as a risk to that hull's integrity due to lack of full ht., dedicated, transverse framing.

As long as the deck frame matrix is adequately attached to the hull stringers/longitudinals the resulting structure closely approximates the stiffness of the type of framing shown in the lines drawings of your earlier post. It doesn't matter if the trusses touch the hull or not, if the longs are supported to the new deck frame the stiffness of the overall panel is intact.

If the two boats, the one in the modification here, and the one shown in a the framing lines drawing were driven over by D9 Cat bulldozers (?) I'd say the more heavily framed one would be crushed last, but up until outside conditions exceeded the hull material failure forces, the lighter framed boat doesn't seem inadequate to keep the boat's bottom stiff when it is running at its top end. So is the full depth transverse framed boat 'stronger' than the long framed/trussed/ and top transverse deck framing- yes at the ultimate yield or failure.

Is the lighter framed boat dangerous or a risk? No; the (open type) framing creates a more than adequate panel/box beam to support the load of the boat's thrust and movement with a deck load of people.

I do agree that trailering damage could result to almost any welded boat if the bunks/rollers/supports are not placed correctly to support the hull along its framing members. Traveling at 70mph on a 3" square inch roller is plenty of impact/local loading and those need to be placed carefully.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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