5086 VS 5052

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Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

5086 VS 5052

#1

Post by Repairguy » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:35 pm

I am new to this site and been trying to find info to answer my questions. I will be building a barge 26 x 10 x 30". I would like use 5086 material. the hull and deck will be 1/4 5086 plate with 4" 6061 channel on 24" centers. We will be adding a 1000 lbs crane on the deck with a additional 6061 60 x 120 underneath it. Another builder that only uses on 5052 said the 5086 will crack under this. I cant find anything to support this. Any thoughts?
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

kmorin
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Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#2

Post by kmorin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:14 am

Repairguy, well there's not enough here to go by to make a full and complete reply but 5052 is not as strong, tough, nor has the tensile of the 5086 so his claims are sort of questionable on the face. BUTTTTT, not seeing a full structural diagram, plans and other considerations, I'm not saying that the alloy can't have some effects on the structural performance.

But the question is so briefly offered......? ..... we can't really see what's being questioned? If you can avoid 6061 and make all the deck support 5086 bent pieces the barge will #1 last longer... #2 not have ANY 'as welded' HAZ or moment differentials, and will have a more reliable predictability of moment of load on the deck that supports it.

Cracking is usually associated with loads that overstress the alloy- 5086 has all mechanical properties higher (in all categories) than the 5052 spec.s so the idea the structure will 'crack' has little basis in the materials' difference in properties?

Not sure I'm any help? without some drawing/design/scantling/plan... what can we infer from words?????

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#3

Post by Repairguy » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:47 am

This is a work platform barge that needs a flat deck for the workers. It is used to install dock pilings and sea wall work in the intracoastle. It uses a single outboard engine. I could use a 5086 1/2 plate under the crane to keep the same alloys. Is there anyway to talk on the phone?
Thanks Repair Guy
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

kmorin
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Re: 5086 VS 5052

#4

Post by kmorin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:24 am

repair guy, I'm not sure what a phone conversation will help but we can hold one if you'd like. My experience is less gets done there than in writing. Let's see if I have the picture- your idea is to add a 5x12' pad or deck doubler under the crane and the entire barge will be 5086?

Not seeing the deck mount features of the crane and assuming it will bolt to some prepared hard points (??) we can't see how the overall structure is effected enough without plans, sketches or some framing ideas to really give feedback.

So... I'll tell you what I'd do, back of the napkin style, without drawings. If the entire barge hull is only 30" deep, I'd make the frames (longwise or cross wise) into full depth "trusses". Three ways in general to do this. First is to use solid plate with some form of vertical stiffeners, like a 30" piece of 3/16" full width with an intersecting piece of 3/16" going the other way- long wise if first are transverse? Now, lets say these are on 2' centers? They'd from a 2' grid or honeycomb- and would be full depth. Then I'd break up the grid to 12" either way- using lighter material that was not full depth but if I were given a chance- I'd use bent 5086 say 6" vertical and 2" horizontal where the open leg is welded to hull and deck forming a channel with a 6" depth- once welded. Generally stiffer than a narrower (fully formed) channel shape welded to the same location.

Now, the entire vessel is a honeycomb, and its all of 5086. This could be done (method #2) with composite 'trusses' or longs and transverse full depth members that are made of open web or angles top and bottom edges (previously discussed piece of plate bent) and angled extrusion shapes (6061) webbing like a Jr Beam construction. These could be built on the 'bench' using horses. The last general method (#3) is to make the interior framing shallow (about) 4" deck framing grid, with a 4" hull framing grind (two shallow honeycombs) and then put legs/struts/webbing between the two both angled and vertically for compression and diagonal bracing. Even then, I'd avoid channel (top and bottom grids) over deeper, unequal legged angles, because the depth is a greater contribution to structural moment than the two legs.

To attach anything to the deck, I would not care about the deck being doubled as much as I'd care to have the bolt points (hard points or mounting locations) integral to the interior framing elements- the loads of a rolling moment from a mast/crane/centrally located working boom- are most important to reach into and be part of the overall interior framing much more than the deck "skin". My thinking is this design may be different from the other builders? he may rely on deck mounted welds- so the area of the crane base may actually flex in way where 5086 would fatigue quicker than 5052? I'm speculating here, but by making the attchments reach into the framing- I'd seek to avoid any flex of the deck because the mounts were not on its surface alone- they'd reach into the hull's structural framing.

Say the crane pedestal is a steel cylinder with a flange ring for bolts- I'd make a mating ring of aluminum and where the ring crossed over the interior framing I'd put thicker material (3/8" 1/2") down through the deck that lapped the entire vertical of the 'trusses'- the reason being to keep the loads distributed along the vertical depth of the longs or transverse members- not to have a sheer point at the deck line. There has to be a seal weld at the deck line intersection but the flange ring's actual ties into the barge would be through deck down to the framing. Not sure the crane base size, shape or arrangement of fasteners? So this is, again, a generic remark not a design.

All of these calc.s (loads, moments, point loads, deck loading, stability and so on...) should be done by someone who has access to the various facts of use, purpose to task, and crane pedestal details and is qualified to do this type of marine engineering- (I'm just a boat builder, I've designed and built a couple 40' x 16' x 4' deep barge/scow vessels but they didn't have cranes and I was close enough to back up any work that was a problem too.) So my generic discussion is not intended to substitute for engineering your barge, just a review of what I'd do in your position.

I think the concern with more rigid plate deck doubler is that weld points may create crack potential if the entire deck area were loaded enough to flex? But making the entire hull of 5086 would be as good, certainly, as 5052 but stiffer, stronger, and less "flexible". All alloys could crack if the loads placed on the final welded shape were greater than the as welded shape's stiffness. Rule of thumb- if if flexes it can crack. So perhaps the other builder's experience (?) is with a shape made of more 'malleable' 5052 standing up where 5086 didn't- the answer to me; make the overall design of the structure stiffer than it was before. Again, this is a shot in the dark without images, plans or even sketches.

Rather than to call me, I'd prefer to see you call a welding engineer or marine architect close to you to get his expertise, sounds like a job for someone with a full time focus on work boats?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#5

Post by Repairguy » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:48 pm

The order is official and the final dimensions are 26 Ft. long by 10 Ft. wide and 30" deep. It will have a 28 Ft. long A frame crane built from 4" x 8" x 1/4" 6061 rectangular tubing with cross supports every 16". Internal round spud holders near the front base of the crane and 2 externals in the rear. My customer just bought a barge from another vendor that is the basic design. I do not like the sub frame in it. I will be using 4" channel 1.67 web. 6061. the frame for the top deck will be on 17" centers legs up. My design incorporates 45 degree bracing with 4" channel into the trusses and will build them the length of the boat. The crane does not pivot to the sides therefore I think it is more effective for strength. The new barge just delivered has only 90 degree corners on its trusses. Under the crane I am adding 6" channel vertical and 45 degree to move the load to the bottom of the boat. My sheets are 60" X 240" for the top and bottom skin with a 120" x 72" to finish the top. The sides will take 2 sheets to make the length. I cant locate any longer sheets down here in Florida. The console will be TIG welded. I figure start welding in the center of the sheets and work out welding 6" at a time only. Should I bevel the edges or leave a 1/16th gap to penetrate through. They will be fully welded on both sides of the sheets. I have welded a lot of aluminum but never 5086. I will run practice welds but advice is greatly welcomed. I have 25 years of custom welding of all types. Can you bend this 5086 sheets 90 degree against the grain or will it crack using 3/16 plate? All skin is 1/4 5086. Using a 3/8 5086 plate under the crane area and rear transom were the engine mount will be. I ordered a 35 Ft. push pull gun from Miller to uses with a Miller 252. Is anyone using the Miller 350 with the Pulser. I priced that machine today, a little out of my budget. I picked up a Miller Syncrowave 350LX a month ago so I am low on money. Upon inspection of the existing barge today i noticed terrible condensation internally especially under the floor. The barge has a air tight Bomar hatch but has small 1.5" pipes in the rear transom for control lines. It is not sealed then. Would it be better for the boat to breath with vents than potential corrosion? I will have my plans drrawn by this Monday and will post them. I will also post pictures as I go. I have always offered how to teach people to weld and fabricate and will share my knowledge.
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

kmorin
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Re: 5086 VS 5052

#6

Post by kmorin » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:49 pm

Repairguy,
I'll wait to see what the images look like before trying to make any remarks since the description seems pretty complex?

As regard to welding 5086 that generally done with 5356 wire/filler but I've seen some use 4043. I personally can't agree to adding that much silicone in the filler and the bend breaks I've done show that filler to seriously degrade the as-welded joints. 5356 in MIG is a bit more work to get tuned and lay down nicely, but in TIG is about the same as any other aluminum alloy to me. (I use a cold wire feed TIG gun most of the time)

Regarding bending 5086 I always rely on the bend radius charts where 4T is considered the minimum centerline radius for this alloy. I have found most shops don't own dies with 1" nose bars (!) and won't even consider my requests for bends that meet spec. So... I use one shop that does a triple shot bend; they put three 33deg bends close to one another to simulate the 1" radius needed to get crack free bends in 5086. With the grain cracks seem most common when steel dies are used in too-tight radius bends. I always make the shop test bend a sample before trusting them with material I've bought. On the other hand, some shops will offer to sell material to spec, in those cases I just bid the entire sheared, formed and ready part- on inspection. Not many shop owners will bid like that unless they know the material performance.

Pulse MIG does provide an improved wetting of the parent metal in most welds. But, there is some learning curve associated with all leading power supplies' arc control features. My advice is not to plan to buy the machine and begin to incorporate these new arc control features as soon as the power supply and feeder are operational. I'd suggest a few hours tuning the settings, testing and breaking welds both butt and fillet- and dial in the pulse features over the old transformer type beads.

I found one new Miller 350 Pulse with a contact tip problem that was related to the pulse function so I used the MK ceramic pellet contact tips from a Python from Lincoln to solve the problem. I've not had any experience with the other Miller wire feeders to speak of.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai AK

All air tight (weld tested) voids in all hulls should be vented to equalize pressure changes due to both ambient temp shifts and sunlight heating up the surfaces of the spaces, and darkness reversing all those changes in volume due to heating or cooling of the air inside a void. I'd include at least 2- 2" (approx) rises with goose necks and floating ball checks so they'd stop off if the barge were every awash (not saying it would ever be...).

I consider removal of the mill scale critical to long term integrity of marine aluminum bilge voids including under deck areas. And in the case of a barge bilge, I'd make a weekly ph test of the bilge water (even condensate) a routine not be skipped! Acid forms when is kept off water for any length of time.

We always enjoy reading builders' experiences and welcome your posts about your project, design decisions and especially construction photos.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#7

Post by Repairguy » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:18 pm

If anyone is following this post my material comes next Tuesday. I am in the process of building my lift/ rotisserie/ rolling cart. It is built from 4" square tube with a 12volt hydraulic pump. I built the hydraulic tank into the frame. Using 2 4" bore cylinders to lift it 36" and rotate it 360 degree's. It has 8" x 3" poly casters for rolling out of the shop. I would like to post pictures as I go but dont know how.
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

kmorin
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Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#8

Post by kmorin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:19 pm

Repair, I just did the following for an image file on my hard drive. Below this dialog (typing window)_ was a pair of 'tabs'. One said "Options" the other said "Attachments". I clicked on the second tab, "Attachments" . There was a button there (text surrounded by a rectangular/shadowed box that had the words "Add Files"; I clicked that button.

Next came up pop up dialog box that was labeled "File Upload" in the upper most left hand corner and this was just a regular Windows Explorer dialog that lead to my PC, which I navigated to the location of a skiff side picture. I clicked on "Open" (lower right corner button in Windows) and the file name appeared in a horizontal dialog- at the left side. In the dialog box labeled Comments I typed "Side of Skiff Test Image from Hard Drive" and that appeared below the image in an attachment pop up inside my post- see below.

image add test using "Attachment" feature below text dialog box.

Notice this method puts a thumbnail of the photo image into the post, others can click on that image and a pop up page shows the image at a different (native) pixelation/size/scale/screen percentage?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Attachments
IMG_0136.JPG
Side of Skiff Test Image from Hard Drive
kmorin

kmorin
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Posts: 1359
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Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#9

Post by kmorin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:32 pm

Repair

Another way to show images is to link to an online storage site. I keep most of my online images at Photobucket, where I keep an account to link the pictures stored to any web page that uses the php Bulletin Board type of hosting software.

In that case Image

By using this method the images can be embedded into the text easier than the previous method so a narrative post is a little quicker to write.

[im g]http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... wo_1-1.jpg[/im g]
Notice the two spaces in the label "img" at both ends of the string? that stops the BB software from processing the text string into a command to display the image as above- that is exactly what is linked above- but since there are no spaces in the typing- the image is shown. I can see that in the edit window, but when posted the line is interpreted as a command by the display software.

The image is one of a 30' skiff building rotisserie which resulted from a long conversation years ago, with a builder in Oregon; Mr Jack Davis- so I refer to this fixture as a Davis Jig.

I'm pretty sure these two methods of showing images will work for most posters? One display event that does happen a lot - is to take images taken with iApple products (iPhones, iPads, iThings) which almost always turn them up, over, sideways and so forth. Not sure what to do in all cases- there? I tend to edit photos, crop and size them in Photoshop, before I store them online... so most of my headaches in photo-processing are dealt with in the editing process not online.

Hope these posts allow you to better understand the site's icons' scripts to post your own images here? Best of fortune.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

Cheers
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#10

Post by Repairguy » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:01 pm

Hey Kevin how much do the boats weigh that you are flipping? This barge is 7k give or take.
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

kmorin
Donator 08','09,'10,'11,'12,'13,'14,'15,'16,'17,'18'
Posts: 1359
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:37 am
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#11

Post by kmorin » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:23 pm

Repairguy, heaviest one was last one at 2.8k lb. hull - but the building was too short ! I couldn't use the entire rotation due to the relative ht of the skiff mounted to the rotisserie inside that particular shop.

Image
once the topsides were on- the center beam needed to be about 4'6" up to roll, but then it hit the rafters and the floor! So I only rocked it back and forth on this build. Shown w/o cabin.

I had to truss the main beam to keep it reasonably stiff as I couldn't get the right size rectangular tube at the time of the Davis Jig build - in that case.

You may need to include outriggers on rotisserie for a barge/scow build to get the entire hull to roll? Of course it depends on your fixture's actual dimensions and design?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Repairguy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:10 pm
Location: Dunedin Florida

Re: 5086 VS 5052

#12

Post by Repairguy » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:59 pm

Thanks for the info on posting pictures. I opened a Photo Bucket account to help me. I installed my Miller 35 Ft push pull gun yesterday with .47 wire and did only 2 test welds. It worked just perfect. Its a air cooled gun. I passed on the water cooled unit even though we have a Coolmate 4 I could have used. I welded up my first 6" channel truss today with ease. has anyone welded over 1/2" thick aluminum? pre heat with a torch. Will be bolting these mounting frames also. Can't wait to weld the 5086 skin. I have been looking at some different blades to bevel my edges on my long sheets. Could you use a modified circular saw with carbide tips.
Anything is possible. People that say No have not tried hard enough. :smitty:

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