How do I fix these cracks?

[BoatBucks]

How do I fix this? The hard top moves laterally too much and has caused these cracks. Just welding it will not fix it since the movement will not stop. I'm not so sure reinforcing the area will work and I'm afraid the stress will just be transferred someplace else. What do I do?

Taking the boat to the manufacturer is NOT and option. I'll have this boat for many years to come and I'm looking for advice on a permanent fix.

[aluminumdreamer]

One idea would be to cut the piece off and replace it with a larger diameter piece of pipe bent to the same shape. The handle looks like a small piece of square tube? I would think a piece of 1 1/4" sch. 40 pipe would do the trick. In addition to that I would possibly think about trying to brace up the top so it flexes less.

Hopefully that helps some, but keep in mind I'm not a boat builder.

Nate

[goatram]

I agree Nat on the pipe. Also Looking Fwd from the back of the boat is there any bracing in the top corners? North River has a Six inch web up the sides and across the top The Rest of the back is open. This is on their new 22' Seahawk. I will try and take a picture of it tomorrow to better show the support.

[gandrfab]

Not to good at expressing my ideas typing but I'll try.

On the vertical supports I think having a 3 or 4 rung horizontal bracing will help, kind of like a ladder.

[welderbob]

Cut off square tube
weld a larger doubler plate at the base , possibly bend a lip down to spread out the load
use a larger pipe and put two or three short pipe between the base and top . Ladder look like "GrandFab" recommend
create some sort of stiffener port to starboard. Maybe it could be part of a large rod holder??

Welderbob

[welder]

How thick is the material the Gunwales are made out of ? Is there bracing in/under the gunwale to support the top ?

It looks like you need support under the gunwale , a base plate welded to the gunwale [ top side ] and bigger Diameter supports with gussets.

[goatram]

sorry about the bright light.

A few good ideas were offered so let us know which way you went.

[BoatBucks]

Thanks for advice. These are the best ideas so far that are consistent. Gunwale is 1/8" 5086. Yes, there are supports under the gunwale to support the load of the top. The rear corners of the top is gusseted by speaker boxes.

What about replacing the support as mentioned with a "ladder" type support that is bolted on rather than welded? Maybe use some sort of backing plat on the underside of the gunwale?

The newer boats use a larger tube, 1.25" but it's essentially in the same place as this, maybe a little higher. I'm not sure there is any reinforcement on the underside out not.

[goatram]

You Need to weld up the cracks and to weld the other braces would be a couple of more hours in the shop. Better stronger with out the chance of corrosion later. Bigger Tube and the ladder along with at least 45 deg angle at the top.

Speaker Boxes welded or bolted on?

[BoatBucks]

Welded....

[21ftcc]

You need to add cross support for the pilot house. As the p.h. rocks back and forth its adding stress on the litter 1" square tubing. This is why the weld is cracking, its the weakest point.

[BoatBucks]

Sorry guys I just don't get to this forum too often. Busy working, fishing, and boating.

So here is an update....

I have not fixed her yet. The cracks don't seem to be growing. I've talked to one shop and they had some good suggestions but I'm not sure I want to spend that much at this point. I'm also kind of waiting to see what else I'm going to find after these were discovered ....











So far, I have one support that is broke as well.





At this point, I'm of the mind set to just weld them up an call it good. I'm going to imagine that this could be a regular problem and I'll need to weld her up every so often. <sigh>

[JETTYWOLF]

Wow,

That ain't looking good.

Since I have no earthly idea where west valley is, since there is no "as requested" state, province, or territory listed with your profile. I'll assume the boats is used in pretty heavy duty water's ?

I'd be contacting the factory if it was me. Something is wrong. The cracks are now showing up in other places besides that heavy top?

[BoatBucks]

I'm in Oregon, I updated my location. Sorry about that. It's a whitewater style boat. It's been used hard no doubt but I thought that's what it was made for. The boat is 5 years old. Live and learn. It's only money right? Taking it to the manufacturer is not an option and I won't go into why that is.

So, to those that are in the know....The cracks in the transom, I figure a guy can "vee" grind the cracks and weld. That should at least stop the cracks from traveling further. Maybe it won't continue since maybe the metal has relieved the stress causing it?

Yeah I got issues.....

[goatram]

I'm in Oregon, I updated my location.
So, to those that are in the know....The cracks in the transom, I figure a guy can "vee" grind the cracks and weld. That should at least stop the cracks from traveling further. Maybe it won't continue since maybe the metal has relieved the stress causing it?

Yeah I got issues.....

It might be that it had some stress welded into it. Grinding out and rewelding it is an option. I think it has more to do with the top flexing that is working the metal all around. A guy on IFish.net might be close enough to you to fix the top and the stern cracks.

http://nwcustomboatworks.com/

I am 210 miles north of the border you can always come up and get it done on weekend then head to the Sound and the San Juan's

[BoatBucks]

I know Robin and I'm on ifish also but under a different moniker. Thanks for the offer but I can get it fixed close to home.

I guess my solution must be ok since no one else has said otherwise. Probably need to drill a hole at the ends of the crack too. Now I need to stop fishing long enough to get it worked on.

[goatram]

I thought you might be there. Drilling a .250" hole would be a good thing to stop the progression. We do it on Aircraft Wing Skin to stop the cracks. Some times we leave them alone other times we put a repair doubler on with rivets next gauge thicker for a repair.

Robin Should be able to help you. Good Luck.

[Polywave]

Just thought I would toss in my 2 cents.

Not only do I see a load placed on the grab rail by the cabin in the port-starboard direction, but I expect a rather substantial load is placed on the grab rails in the fore-aft direction when someone uses them to get into or out of the boat. I would remove the box grabrails and replace them with 1-1/4" tubing as has been previously suggested.

I would weld a plate to the top and bottom of the grab rails before installation to increase their contact surface to the boat, in all directions.

I would also grind down the weld at the corners of the transom, and weld or bolt on a 1/4" plate (using 1/4-20 bolts and nuts) to join the transom to the gunnel. It looks to me like the designer made a mistake when he decided to place 45 degree welds in that location. I feel this way because I'm sure that while under way the motor pulls on the top of the transom, and the top of the transom pulls on the gunnels. Welds perpendicular to the transom would be much stronger in this area.
Maybe the plate could double as a downrigger mount!

Hope this helps,
Polywave

[kmorin]

I think the cabin is deflecting to the sides due to the size of the glass mass in the windows without any lateral section of the after plane, and that is cured by goatram's offset outline bulkhead. Installing plate could be done by lapping the existing square tube frame with plate and then through bolting, that would install the stiffening panel/section/bulkhead cold.

But you may try to truss this opening using tube/pipe, I prefer pipe/round tube as its not as hard to hit your head, but them my head isn't as hard as it used to be.



This could be installed by TIG welding the bent frame of tube in then webbing the two frames together, needless to say, I didn't draw all the webbing that would be needed just one or two struts. All colors are to give context, the image is not to scale.

The two square tubes on the gunwale are flexing the entire after outboard guard deck panel all the way to the weld which has failed at the HAZ (toe) on the flexure side. Therefore the joint could be unloaded by creating an inside doubler of 4" angle extrusion I just popped in some 4" x 4" x 1/2" but I think 1/4" or 3/8" would be as serviceable.



This could be welded along the top and bottom of each leg to avoid the vertical HAZ along the thinner press braked guard deck return (vertical surface that is cracked in photos provided) as the thicker section of the extrusion would allow the extrusion's thick and solid web joint to take the vertical deflection without heat reduction of the tensile of the 6061 which is considerably higher than the 5052 gunwales.

just more ideas to consider.

cheers,
Kevin Morin

[BoatBucks]

Thanks for the drawings Kevin. The arch idea is probably the right way to do it and is also the most expensive. My hard top is only 4' wide and the rear foot of the top is canvas. At this point I don't have the budget to do it right.

The corner bracing looks pretty simple although I'll need to relocate a switch and plug in which is pretty do able.

Thanks again.

[kmorin]

BoatBucks, that's what the ABB Forum is for! you're welcome.

I do realize while I'm typing that I'm proposing to spend other guys' money like water. I don't ignore the costs of some of the solutions its just that I'm more or less focused on the integrity of the boat, there may be some short term aids you could try?

What about bolting through the after upright with an offset panel or bulkhead like the one goatram showed above? This would likely stop the cracks, but could be cold applied with a Bosch Jig saw, 1590 you could cut the outlines, then use some 1/4x20 bolts to attach the 4" or wider panel, at least you'd control the side to side movement?

just a thought?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin

[BoatBucks]

Thought I'd update this thread.....took a while but she's finally fixed. The top support is now bolted on with backing plates instead of welded and they used larger 1.25" schd 40 pipe. I worked with a manufacturer (not the one who built the boat) who I felt had a good understanding of what the issue were and one that I had confidence in and that they were doing what they felt was right based on their experience.

I still need to bring her home so I have not seen it in person. I wasn't going to paint it but decided just the other day I may end up selling it in a year or so. I'm going to make the trek to go get her on Saturday and be fishing by Sunday.

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[goatram]

A good repair painted nice. Glad that you found some one to do it and your happy with it.

[pjay9]

Good looking job! An added benie of the roof support is that now you got something to hold onto while standing on the dock and swinging aboard. Thx for the update! Capt PJ

PS did you catch anything or is that this coming Sunday?

[BoatBucks]

I added another net holder since I could. I sometimes have a couple nets and a harpoon so this will be a nice addition.

Haven't fished yet. I still need to make the trip to go get her. It's an 8 hour, 450 mile round trip to the shop that fixed it. I'm excited to get her back since I have not run her since October and haven't even seen the boat in over 2 months. I need a river/fishin fix bad.