24' DYI alloy remodel

[Tfitz]

I've kind of given some thought to a wire chase up to the roof rack already. I was thinking I would run a 1" interior grab bar from the dash to the roof and it would double as a wire chase? You think one 1" pipe is big enough for all the wiring?
We like to butcher moose like this because you end up with such nice clean professional cuts of meat. I have a meat ban saw in my shop and we get all the true T-bone, ribs, ribeye's and round steaks. But if we had to pack the meat all those bones would be left in the Feild and I would have a very sad dog. Actually my moose hauling machine is from the 1960 era. I rescued it from the crusher and spent 2 winters and $10K restoring it. Completely stripped it down and rebuilt all new http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=65303
I thought the track rig was a big project but this aluminum boat is a much bigger project!
I think my window opening repair is going to work! At least At this point I see NO warpage and all is welded. Tomorrow I will cut it out and see what happens

[dingahling]

Nice over haul on the boat and the J5. Really inspiring

[kmorin]

Tfitz,

I think the metal framed windows will flatten any residual warping? Heat sinks help too, but the key is to make the welds hot & narrow so they can be faster (yet) and that's just plain hard to do in the positions and contortions needed in the windscreen/window band area.

Frankly this entire area is easier to build off the boat than on but the renewed bands look like they're staying pretty flat. Are they 1/8"? You may have already said and I've forgotten?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

It's a done deal! They stayed flat and look good I've already moved on to the next task and it's going to be something fun!! I'm mounting my drum winch and building a cool looking cover with more curvy "lines". Yes the window screen repair was all 1/8" and I used every technique you showed me. Heat sinks, weld hot n fast, weld in the opposite direction of travel and skip weld short sections. And ZERO warpage. But I think your complete window pan replacement method would have been a better final product but would have taken me longer and been more expensive. I still have some corrosion on the upper edges too just not pitted very deep so I don't know how long it will last but I suspect many years.
Oh and next time try and respond a little quicker and maybe I'll use your ideas. Spring is just around the bend and this project WILL be ready to fish. No more excuses this time

[kmorin]

Tfitz, my main orientation has been doing work for others so the costs are time & matl's from my prespective, where your time is yours to organize so the materials are the bigger cash outlay. I'm glad the panels came out clean and flat, that will make the window easier to seal for certain.

If you clean the remaining pits, put cardboard behind and tape off the window's flange shape then coat that area with primer, then Bondo and smooth the pits' surfaces then top coat with some additional primer? the windows' sealant will not have to fill any pits, and won't have any gaps to fill in and seal.

Sorry to be late in my comments, you know us old guys are hard pressed to read an entire post so replying does take longer... I'll work to get that tuned up.

The anchor winch cover is next? What's it look like, I know you don't often draw before you cut, but I draw all the time so I can't help but ask for the sketch/image/concept/pic marked up.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

Ok let me get the winch mounted and sitting where it will forever reside then I will start to fit the cover and take some photos for you probably by end of Tommorow. Tapping 6ea 3/8"x 16 holes now in the winch well to hold the winch base firm. Tapping through 3/4" of aluminum and using Tefgel

[Tfitz]

The last two photos(both are upside down) are of the remaining corrosion around the top of the windows. My new bolt in windows only have a 3/4" flange so I think this corrosion will not be covered by the window flange. Do you think I càn just wire brushing this clean and not covering it will keep the corrosion away for years?
I'm pretty set on my idea for covering the drum winch. I think this will work out ok. So your going to have to come up with a home run idea to change my course now. But what I don't know how to go is make a nice edge around the trunk cabin roof cut out cover. I need to add a little strip or something around the entire edge to overlap the existing roof to cover the gàp? Any ideas? It will be hard to run a continuous weld along the edge and not warp the cover. I'm going to start building the raised "hood scoop" so if you have a better idea let me know soon. Otherwise figure out how I should do thè edge

[kmorin]

Tfitz, I have couple of ideas but not time to sketch presently.

The only thing about a bow mounted forward facing scoop that I see is - it will scoop, mist, spray, rain, waves.... you name it and this scoop -will?

I usually go for the covered look then put a round bar horizontal oval in line with the core and drum so the line can wind on and minimize the opening, and also try to keep the trunk looking as dressed as I can?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

Yea I see your point but the unit is built to not even need a cover. I will try to minumize the scoop somewhat as the build takes shape

[kmorin]

Tfitz, didn't mean to imply the cover was to protect the anchor winch. I was remaking about the idea of the trunk's looks and the fore deck looks, the cover is to enhance the looks not as much weather protection.



OK hard to see with tan paint and little contrast but the cover is just a cambered plate and it 45deg front cover the top is flanged back to run the winch, and the inverted U is to allow a fairlead for the ground tackle as it comes out to the anchor. What I was talking about was low profile, low appendage, low intrusion, my remarks were in the esthetics department.

If possible, a bar or some 3/16" could be cut as an L to fit on the trunk, this would be welded rigid to the opening and form a coaming (vertical wall, all around the opening) and the lid could be hinged to the coaming. I'd suggest that round bar could be welded to the edges of the hatch cover or even a small 1'x1/4" bar to give stiffness and a weather strip can be glued inside that, under the cover's flat top to allow the hatch to lay quietly on the 3/16" coaming's top edges.

Plate hinges on the after side will allow the top/hatch to swing open to the trunk and allow access to the drum.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

I'm starting to see your points now and some of them are forming into my plan. For example instead of a forward facing scoop. I think I will keep it flat level, in the same plane as the bow roller supports. That way the roller support bars, the anchor rope, and the scoop will all have the same "line". Also I will keep the scoop as low as possible. I figure 2" above the trunk cabin roof. That gives me 1" of clearence above the drum. I think I like the idea of wrapping the scoop hole with slolid round stock. I'm sure the chain will be rubbing on it at times. Also the I like the cover to hinge forward so it's easy to get at the winch and keep your feet in the bow hatch. The 1" x 3/16" flat bar around the perimeter of the cover works well enough for me but could I weld that continous with out warping the cover? Also what do you think about the corrosion on the upper part of the wind screen? Is that a problem 10-15 years down the road or sooner. Seems like if I cleaned it and kept it exposed to the air it would self heal. That sloped surface will always drain well and be dry most of the time.

[kmorin]

Tfitz, I agree the pitting on the window band may well stay inert, if you 've buffed/wire wheeled the surface and there is not white chalk left, it will probably remain inert? I was thinking the corrosion/pitting was going to be a sealing issue with the new windows, so I was suggesting a filler if the new windows needed to have a smooth surface to seal?

The only issue I see with tipping the cover forward to make standing in the trunk top hatch handy is the idea of the line/anchor rode/chain running forward? If it has to pass through the hinge plane (?) then maybe making a 'barn door' (two piece) hatch is more effective? If the entire cover is one piece and it opens forward to make the access easier? then.... the line would seem to hold it up? The geometry seems a little harder with a single piece forward opening as opposed to considering two smaller halves opening side to side? Then the line from the bow roller to the drum is open and can be seen as opposed to having the forward hinged cover over the line at some point? Might also make seeing the bow roller and cheeks harder to see?

I don't think I've done any trunk top hatches for access as that seems to impl standing on the bunks (hopefully between them?) with boots on, and possibly opening the hatch to the rain in the one decently dry area in the boat- forward under the trunk. An automotive heater core and some hose can make the area drier yet but running a circuit off the engine coolant in the cabin. Just not sure of the handiness of this hatchway where you're standing on the bunk/stowage area?

If a 1" bar coaming on the hatch cover (s ?) was to warp... then it can be hammered back on the bench or pressed back with a lever and some dogs on the bench, either way, as along as you can put a warped piece in some fixture to reform, generally all shaping can be controlled if the welds did contract that hatch cover.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

I've said several times that I am not good at recognizing what makes for a good looking boat improvement. I can see well if something's functional and well built no problem. So I can build something very functional and well built and think to myself "this is looking real good", when really maybe...not so good?? I really don't know???
So today I work on the winch cover and get to a point that I think is looking good! So I invite my neighbor up for a beer and first thing he says is "That looks like sh!t !! I think it looks cool!!! But maybe it's not???? I want my drum covered to protect the rope from UV (functional). I think the cover makes things look finished and add some protection (looks cool). I see a way to support the cover perimeter edge from the under side so it will look like it does now (no gap covering bar around cover perimeter). I like the clean look of no perimeter bar. Also, the cover cut out needs to be cut out over the drum, I'm leaving it intact so during weld out it will be less Likely to warp, then cut out after weld out. Also, I think it will hing forward just fine, if the rope interfears with the cover opening I would just pull a little slack in the anchor line and tie it off, then the cover will open. If the drum was tangled you would need to do that anyway...So what do U think?

[Tfitz]

Here's a photo inside looking forward

[kmorin]

Tfitz, I'm just not a fan of the hood scoop look in this application, probably just "design preference" or point of view regarding that shape on the bow? I think the shape is fine by itself, just don't like to see something sticking up at that location of the profile forward of the trunk. On the front of the muscle car? -OK looks good, but the foredeck of a boat? not for me.

I'd still go with a split/clamshell/side opening set of hatches so they cleared the drum and line if there were backlash/overlap/fouled line to clear if working from the trunk top hatch. The the two covers would not be in the way of the line, which will be under some tension from the bow roller to the drum top when on hook is set. So I'd prefer to be able to clear the work (potential) work area of a hatch laying on the line/anchor rode/chain while fiddling with the winch.

The scoop just leaves me with too much mixed automotive versus boat looks I guess? With the scoop the hatch can old fold up vertical and not out of the way, so standing on the foredeck (on the trailer in the shop?) the hatch will have to have quick removable pins (SS with detente pins to lock in place) to get it out of the way it seems to me?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

I just had my other neighbor come over for a look and he took one look and said "no good". And it has nothing to do with looks. He said you need to see the drum as your bringing in the line.....Duh....seems pretty obvious now. That sinks my functionality requirement right there. So what the heck! Now I already have a good start at building a muscle car from the ground up!!!!. But just give me a few minuets I'll think of another great looking idea to waste my day on. Gee Maybe It would be better to draw it out on paper first.......? naa... I'll just go for it

[kmorin]

Tfitz, I agree and disagree with the neighbor's requirement to see the drum. First I do agree that unless you have a level wind you'll need to insure the line feeds somewhat evenly on the winch drum or end up piling up one end or the middle of the drum. But the disagree part is that I've built and run a couple smaller winches and they do level wind surprisingly well.

The key to self feed is the size of the line (large soft lines work better than smaller lines) and the size of the winch core- diameter, if it's 3" or larger then it seems to feed pretty well initially. Once the line goes on the first round or two then the line will feed itself pretty well if there's no swell. If there's a swell running then usually there's a few seconds of slack- depends on anchor size and depth, and that's the end of self-fed anchor line. When slacked the line will often overlap, bunch or stack instead of laying next to the previous wrap.

ON one boat with an after hinged cover, we built a single lever 'level wind' so you could stand on the foredeck, and use the lever (padeye hinged centered on the lower winch drum coaming) to push the line side to side, and feed it onto the drum regardless of the level of tension in the line.

I agree that the level feeding the line is key to operating a small winch, and this cover will conflict with that if if hinges forward, but may still be OK if hinged aft? I prefer the lower profile looks and smaller hatch, its less to clear or handle on deck.

Incidentally, an Xtra-Tuff level wind will work too, but sometimes requires jumping port to starboard in a short time to push the opposite direction, and I've only done that with the bow pulpit railing on the foredeck. So, I'd vote for a short lever with a ring of rod on a sleeve to make a stowable fairlead/level wind but lots of guys do that work with a boot sole.

On one skiff that had a very short foredeck so the winch (electric commercial version) was very close (14-16") to the bow roller, the tension was so much that the skipper couldn't force the line side to side on the tiny (intended for wire rope/steel cable) winch drum. Ended up skying the anchor with a buoy rather than mess with his small electric winch. Another factor that seems in your favor is the rollers being on a pulpit, forward, and leaving you a few feet of line that may allow you to level wind your drum more effectively?

I know that I harp on drawing before moving ahead but that's only because of the four lifetimes of work I've saved myself when I found out that my sketches revealed my mistakes before I had to build them to learn that obvious detail?

Looking forward to your various solutions,

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

Before I gave up the muscle car look I took it to the next level. I sent a quick text and a few photos to the guy I bought the winch from. And all he said was I "need to see the drum or install mirrors on the bow" I think the mirrors comment was a joke. So at this point I'm up to bat again and well into (committed) the build. With one strike out already under my belt I'm kinda nervous about a strike 2! If a strike 3 happens I would have to fire this joker / baffoon burning up all this precious time. He's lucky I'm the forgiving type to give him another chance. But I have to admit, I do like the way revision 2 is looking. Wait...I think I've said that before?? Oh well just got go for it and get it done. I'm afraid to show you the concept right now. Another change in course could bend my rudder. I should be at a show off point tommorrow. It's so nice out now I think I'll go cut firewood this afternoon. But trust me...it's looking GOOD!!!

[Tfitz]

This winch has a 120' per min reel up/dn time so it's pretty fast. Maybe its fast enough so that the swells won't mess it up. It also has very small line, 5/16" of 4000lb breaking strength anchor line 600' capacity. The drum shaft is only about 1 1/2" in dia. Everything I read and heard about this winch was real good/problem free operation. My drum set back 38" from the bow roller center. They told me you need at least 30" for it to wind up level on the drum automatically. Looking forward to finding out how well it works. I'm trying to avoid going out on the forward deck. I don't care if I get my bunk a little wet from me working with the bow hatch open if it means avoiding a man overboard situation. This won't be one of those white carpet and pillow cushion frilly boats. Everything in the cabin will be aluminum or vynle and no worrys about sitting down with wet raingear anywhere inside! And yes I already installed a glycol fed heater core with provisions for a defroster and cabin heat. But I have not figured where to tie it into the engine yet. I like building these smaller jobs(winch box cover), VS the big jobs(cabin extension). It's so much easier and lots of possibilities to get creative. Looking forward to laying out the cabin with all the smaller, creative things that will need to be built.

[kmorin]

Tfitz, that winch is much faster than the super chain gear reduced ones we built so there won't be any slack line overlaps! That thing moves right along.. The small line will fairlead pretty well once there's a layer on the drum, depending on the line some guys run a 'backing' layer of old cotton junk line that stays on the drum and acts to cushion the line as it dries and compresses not that bad with some braided synthetics but there are some lines that to stretch and then compress back with they dry.

38" seems like a nice long scope to angle side to side on the drum, but tending the drum for the after side in the trunk hatch still seems optimistic to me, the lead is forward, the level winding has to be done from the bow side of the winch so I'm not willing to buy into the after hatch tending the winch? Guess you'll see?

Looking forward (no pun intended) to your newest design in pictures. Don't fire the builder 'til the boat's afloat.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

I have no experience and don't know what I'm talking about...But what if as your rolling up the anchor your waching the top of the spool and you see if its bunching up on one side of the drum because of wind or current or whatever. So your ideling the engine anyway, so you put the boat in forward gear and turn the boat and drive into the line so the line slips across the 6" wide bow roller to the opposite side of the roller and the line follows to the drum and it begins to wrap up on NOT the thick side. Totally avoiding the extratuff heal help. That's the reason for the flat, wide, bow roller and not the Typical V shaped bow roller. That's my theory a Im sticking to it until I prove myself wrong.
Got the cover ready for weld out this morning. Going to cut more firewood after lunch and do some welding tonight. I may even have a photo for you then...but all bets are off if bad warping things happen. I can feel the pressure of strike two coming on!!!

[Tfitz]

I kinda miss the muscle car look but this works for me too. Lower profile and that 200lb man can jump on the cabin roof and the winch box cover. NO hinges. Don't need them. I think it will be rare to have to remove the cover. With no scoop or doors over spool tangles are accessable. The cover just lifts off. It fits nice and snug but I will bolt it down with two bolts just inside the spool opening bottom left and right. That gap will get a little tighter when it's bolted too. At this rate I hope one winter is enough for me to finish this boat! But what's it matter I'm having a little bit of fun. I'm ready for the next job. To see if my gas tanks fit. Hope there's no redoo's there!

[kmorin]

See? I told you so!

At this rate I hope one winter is enough for me to finish this boat! But what's it matter I'm having a little bit of fun. I'm ready for the next job.

What's the new boat LOA? I'm thinking we've got a new builder in our midst! The next job is a nice looking (maybe Cope or Simpson, something from Bill Lincoln?) 28'-30'er with room for Mrs. Fitz', First Mate to take a hot shower and cook on a nice range.

Admit it, Tfitz, there's a nice sense of accomplishment to building welded aluminum boats...

Winch solution looks good, can't tell if you can reach the drum from the trunk top hatch? so if there were any need to 'fiddle the line' I'm not sure how its going to be done? - but you'll figure that out in the Sound, next year? I still can't agree to standing in the bunks with wet boots, it leaves me looking for another idea- can't get around it- wet bunks are hard to take.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai

[Tfitz]

I already have a good start on a muscle car build, I need to finish that first before I start a new bigger better Aluminum boat project!

[Tfitz]

Before the winch box cover becomes a too distant memory there is one more thing I need to build for it at some point in the future. I need a local momentary toggle control switch within reach of the trunk cabin hatch that is protected from bumps and UV. All I came up with is this half pipe cover. Any ideas?
The first gas tank install went smooth with only some minor mounting hole enlargement. Who needs to draw up anything ahead of time on paper when you can WAG it(WildAssGuess) and get precision results like this. The top of the SS street 90 fitting is the bottom of my floor!
It just occurred to me maybe I should turn the 1/2 pipe 90 deg so the switch cover doesn't resemble a muscle car air scoop in any way shape or form??