24' DYI alloy remodel

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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:01 pm

If only one pipe was welded to the flat radar mounting plate and the other pipe U bolted to the flat mounting plate, that would allow the pipes to pivot down into storage position independent of each other if the U bolts are removed. So I can't visualize a problem with that design yet. Seems like both pipes would gently roll down as near flat as possible. And I would just have to be careful to Keep all rub points smooth under the arch as to where the dingy would stow. Simple, light weight and functional. Maybe if I routed the cables inside the pipe welded to the mounting plate I could exit the pipe through an opening under the plate and the plate would add enough strength to the pipe that it wouldn't weaken and collapse from being compromised

kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:19 pm

Tfitz, yes if the various connections two the pipes were U bolted they'd act like hinges when loosened and then the entire set of pipes and brackets would fold down, make a nice job of the collapsible arch style mast.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:21 am

Ok when I get to the radar arch that's how I will build it. Unfortunately I need to get severàl jobs done before I can get to that one. Next is a bench box, then a table, then an insulated fish box. Then the radar arch. But first these smaller jobs keep bogging me down like the one I was working on tonight. (See photos) I wanted to get the Planar 44D cabin heater ready to install. That means building a mounting bracket and exhaust through hull fitting and ducting collars. I got them all done now and welded in the exhaust fitting. I could have bought a factory $100 stainless through hull fitting but I didn't want any more bolt on stainless crap on my hull. I fixed to much corrosion damage from previous bolt on stainless hardware to do it again. So I built this fitting pretty heavy duty to give it some mass and hopefully enough of a heat sink to spread out the heat. I'm trying to avoid any discoloration to the hull from the exhaust heat. I think there is enough heavy metal near the penetration to suck up allot of the heat I hope. It's all welded in good but if it don't work I could still cut it out pretty easy. The temp is supose to only be 180 deg F at the exhaust and I'm sure it will cool some by the time it gets to the hull.
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 am

[quote="kmorin"] However, since most of your brow, windscreen, roof transition and most other Profile View lines rake, the mast will not look very well unless you rake it as well.


Take a look at this fine looking North River. To me the lines on this boat rake toward the bow. But its radar arch rake is opposite. In your view is this not right? I was thinking about giving my raft more room and raking my radar toward the bow which is opposite of the general rake direction of the lines on my boat. So in my view that logic would be similar to what North River did only 180 out from what I was thinking about how to build the radar arch on my boat.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:53 am

Tfitz, as your wind screen is raked aft, the cabin top line's transition is raked aft ... and lots of other lines like hand rail lines are too.... I was saying that vertical or forward lines of a mast don't seem to be me- IMO- as attractive as keeping the after rake. I'm just giving my designers' eye opinion, all based on not seeing any images of this example your suggesting.

I haven't drawn this to 'see'? Getting you to draw is like pulling hen's teeth (!) so, until I see the design.. which I ain't holdin' my breath expecting you to post, I'm left with my own impressions; "(so) that's my story and I'm stickin' to it."

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:45 am

What I will probably end up doing is when I get to the radar arch job I will just build the radar arch pipes and hold them up there at different angles and keep looking at it and drinking beer until until I see exactly how it should be done :thumbsup:
My new sink arrived last night! it's a big one!!
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:45 am

The table project turned more complex when I wanted it clear enough underneath the table to be able to keep a medium size cooler there and open the lid so I can get food out while people are seated. But considering the "sit, stow, sleep" versatility I'm pretty happy with how it turned out!
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Table Done!
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I can get up on the table and do a dance and it does not move. At all. Completely solid.
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Keep the locking mechanism simple.
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The same pipe supports are used in the sitting AND the sleeping position.
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The 20 x 18 x 37" smooth corner bench box will be lots more storage!
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Here is the 4" heater duct going into my new "hot box"
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Brian at BK service https://www.facebook.com/BKMarineServices?fref=ts Come up with the hot box idea and sold me the Planear deisel heater. Great Guy. Very helpful in every way.
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The hot air is directed into this "box" and things can be dried out quick like gloves or socks. The hot air then goes out a 2" cabin heat vent and up to the dash window defogger vents
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Hot box screen removed
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:18 pm

Tfitz, I think the table looks good but no sure why you decided to miter corners instead of bending- radius? Would a rounded corner in that size pipe be too much loss of area?

Also not sure how the table's hinge piece/bar/line slides up and down? Neat idea, but I can't quite see the moving part to get the two positions?

Is the hot box a plenum to diffuse the warmed up air? Those photos were close up so I wasn't sure if this heats the bunk area?

The photos show up great. Not sure if you're using the same camera/phone or if the new version of the BB/php software is why? but nice looking shots, almost all upright and great detail. Thanks,

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:56 pm

I really like the "G" rail and it does not bend well it looks nice and serves as a great hand hold edge.
The table movement is simply a 1/4" piano hinge that fits into a slot made from a upturned 1 1/2" x 3/16" angle at the two different heights. It just drops / fits in. No tools necessary. Very quick n simple.
The hot box is mostly a transition point between my round 4" ducting and the vertical 3 x 6" window defogger ducting and cabin heat vent outlet. Plus you get the hot box drying things out benefit.Can even warm up food( so they claim!)
Nothing's changed with my phone camera so it must be the software

kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:03 pm

Tfitz, OK, missed the fact this wasn't pipe and was G... I can see that not bending very well. IT does soften the edge while leaving a nice little short coaming around the table, good for containing a spill and cleaning the top too.

I didn't see the hot box as the base of the windscreen defrost either. Another good aspect of keeping all the helm and under dash areas warm is to reduce condensate corrosion that can happen in even a well done wiring system if the cabin gets hot and cold regularly. Not sure I'd want to have a defrost hot enough to heat groceries!?? must be one powerful cabin heater?

But like you say, dry thing out; small cabins in PWsound seem to drip enough as it is, a good heater and moving air seem like they go along way to keeping things dry and that's comfort to me. I spend a few seasons, in the last century, on an old steel tender in that region and the entire cabin was damp even with the cook stove hot enough to drive you out.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:53 am

Getting close to finishing the underfloor, insulated fish / cooler box. About the best idea I could come up with to meet my needs was to make a box within a frame. The frame is attached at the X, Y and Z planes. It will be a good 42 x 21 x 14" ID space to store some glacier ice or slide a couple 50 lbers into. I left 3" of open, clear space below the fish box for ventilation and bilge cleaning access but it's about 6" up off the hull. So the foam should stay dry or drain if splashed. I plan to skin the box exterior with some thin AL sheeting so that will keep the foam dry as well. With my bow ice hold, and now this box ice hold, I should have plenty of ice / fish storage. This will let me leave at least one or two coolers in the truck and free up the deck space. The box is weighing in at a 65lb cost though. I'm concerned about the weight I'm adding to the boat, its adding up and I'm not sure how much it will change performance and things. Guess I'll find out this spring when I give it the float test. Hopefully I'll get it installed and the hatch done this weekend then its finally it's time to start the long awaited RADAR arch!!
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:49 am

Tfitz , the cooler/locker/insulated stowage looks good - I'm not a fan of urethane as I've see to much corrosion as a result but using it as glue may not be as troublesome?

tough design topic really, I've only tried a few versions of what you did, and not that extensively either, but all worked at the so-so level and none of mine performed really well. One builder told me his experience with metal refrigerated compartments were all mediocre and he thought, his opinion after trying several times, was that vibration was melting his ice. His idea was the ice blocks or shaved ice his boats were hauling was being melted by vibration as much as by heat entry? I don't know that much about it, most of the refrigeration has come after I quit building commercial boats.

I did a couple entire fish holds that were insulated and wished that I'd not done them when I was done. Welding, even thin sheets over insulation turned out to be a real challenge. When I went to put a very low air pressure on the skin- the glue lifted! what a mess, I ended up redoing one entire job and refused to follow that method again. I think it leaked anyway? then water was in between the hull and liner- about the only way I'd do that work now would be to build an entire liner before the deck went on, glue in the styrene and put the one piece liner in and then deck over it. Not sure how its done by those who do it best?

It will be interesting to learn how your design fares? Does this fit in the after deck, aft of the other two lockers just aft the house?- not sure where this fits? In the cabin?

Tabbed from the box to the frame will leave hot spots but is sure strong enough to hold some ice/fish/load.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:21 am

Yea it's about like any of the ideas Ive done on this boat...I really don't know how its going to work. I do know that the box shouldn't leak because I pressure tested it.
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:16 am

Got the skin tacked on. What would be a good sealant to run along the top edge of the skin between the tacks? I read someplace silicone is bad for aluminum. I'm just looking for something that would shed water splashes. The top of the box is welded continious and is water tight so water should only run down the sides of the box if at all.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:11 pm

Tfitz,
my go-to sealant/glue/adhesive/goop is 3M 5200 (tm). Never heard that silicone not good for aluminum? but I've seen it come undone a lot. It seems that the edges of the bead can get a little thin, then the edge lift due to ???? (don't know) and they the bead lifts.

Shouldn't be temp expansion as the glues are all flexible? Not sure on the adhesion due to oil or grease contamination on the metal? I've used silicon and always wiped with acetone and clean rag before- seen good seals at first but surely the stuff has lifted over time. IMO 5200 seems more tenacious gripping tighter for longer- I've seen 5200 underwater sealing bolt-on hull fittings stay tight for years and had to be heated to release many years later.

May be better glues/sealants/adhesives out there ? but I'm still using 5200 for the time being until I learn about better compounds' performance?

for what it's worth, I use the longer cure time 5200 because the fast curing seems to skin over too fast, also the longer cure seems to work fine in a heated shop, not that it won't take a day or two but the working time before it films over seems to work well for my projects.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:33 am

I like the way the fish box / cooler turned out. Wish it was bigger but that's the biggest I could build and still insulate it. If the 1 1/2" foam board in the box walls isn't enough to hold ice it would be real easy to "friction fit" foam board mostly all around the outside of the box and double the R value. Their is just enough room between things to do it. I may do it just to help block engine noise from the cabin. The fish box weighed In at 62lbs and the fish box hatch weighed 19. This box was allot a work. Hope it functions well.
Kevin. What do you think is the theory the builder had in mind putting the vents in the middle of the boat? Am I supposed to run ducting from one or more vents to the engine at the stern? Or will the engine / gas fumes vent from the middle of the boat ok? I left plenty of room for air movement under the fish box center between the engine and battery areas
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Mid hull bilge vents
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Original vents were a stainless insert. I made these and welded them in. No corrosion and these will scoop more air than the old ones
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This view is inside the cabin looking at the bilge and back of the vents (identical set on other side also). I'm going to build my battery storage tray in here and the vent ducting can access the bilge through here. The three boxes in the hull are the two gas tanks and fish box center

kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:16 pm

Tfitz, the fish box looks strong enough to hold gravel or ballast! Hope it works well, often times metal boxes aren't the best coolers because of metal conductivity, especially aluminum. If you've left room to add some styrene sheet maybe you'll be able to learn how it works and add more thermal barrier if needed?

Not seeing the fish hold final location I wasn't sure about the step near the hatch coaming - your inside the cabin photo makes it clear now. I think the location is good for fuel and potentially ice/water/fish amidships will help her stay bow down compared to the temptation to load her aft so the bow's up.

I'm glad you took time to clean the mill scale, I think all the work will last longer without corrosion from that step in your work.

Venting inboards' bilges is usually done in different areas if naturally drafted like stacks where there's a chimney effect on I/O's where there's a fan pulling from the bilge areas around the engine and exhausting aft somewhere.

If the vents are located where you show them I'd want to have some foil ducting that connected to the after most engine areas, in the bilges run to the after vent fitting. I'd also want a fan in that leg of the vent flow. The fan is used before start up (I think is a reg.?) to empty any fumes overboard, and since the spaces arround the engine, below the decks would be loosing air to the fan's suction- the incoming vent could simply connect to a duct coming down to the bilges in front of the tanks. This circuit- pulling from the after most engine spaces (transom at the bottom) and venting amidships seems like a long run for the discharge of the fan? but then fresh air would flood in from the forward vent and make up the fan's discharge.

When you're running the after facing vents may have sufficient low pressure on their face to pull air from the same duct? The fan, even underpowered is not much restriction in that duct compared to the long length (assuming a axial flow fan not a squirrel cage) so a low pressure at the discharge vent coupled with a relative high pressure at the intake should work to vent the bilge. There will another factor aiding the bilge air to vent and that is engine sidewall radiant heat- the bilge air will be warmer than ambient air so if there's a small differential pressure between the intake and the outlet vents? there will be air flow just from heat rising out the discharge vent.

One good thing I think will happen is this will work to keep the bilge dried out by higher air flow than if the bilge vent fan was just pulling from the stern and didn't have a long an incoming (make up) air path.

The photos that post on their sides - made me thing you'd stacked the fish hold like a wall/bulkhead mounted cabinet. I thought what are those sealed lockers above and below the 'fridge'? It took a minute to recognize the orientation.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:58 am

My whole life I've been accused of over building things... so why should this project be any different! I like my gravel storage box! Even better now with the floor back around it. My neighbor took one look at my hatch handle and gave me a very subtle hint that it "sucked". He was right...it did kinda pinch your fingers while lifting. So I changed it so it's more better now. I like it anyway. So let me make sure i understand your venting recommendatIon. Both rear vents should have an in line blower fan that is ducted all the way rear to the engine area. The forward facing vents should have short ducts that run to the bilge and do not leave the battery storage area. I did forget to tell you earlier that there are two blower fans, one on each side. You did help me by mentioning that foil ducting. I have see it at NAPA I think. I went to AK Rubber and they wanted $6 per foot for 3 " ducting. But it was pretty heavy duty. That foil stuff should work fine and be allot less expensive.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by kmorin » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:16 am

Tfitz, the main point I was driving at was there has to be some ducting of the two vents won't produce flow- even with a fan. I think that bilge blower fans are ex-proof(?) so they can be used to handle raw- LEL fumes? They are in the discharge side and only HAVE to be run before start up for a few minutes to exhaust and fumes that could be explosive.

Without ducts of some kind- the flow will just be between the two vent ports- which are next to one another. Not much bilge fume exchange. So by having one long and the other short- at least when the fan runs there will be most flow through the bilge area. The fan should pull the bilge exhaust from as close to the engine as possible as that is the source of fuel fumes.

I have seen boats where there was a dedicated bilge exhaust fan over the battery boxes, separate from the engine bilge exhaust. The reasoning I was told was that deep discharging and recharging can leave enough hydrogen gas close around the top of the batteries to explode. I have not installed any of these, but can understand the idea. If your batteries are in the bilge, and you run the bilge exhaust fan for a few minutes before starting, I think you'll pull any fumes -fuel or battery- up the vent and out. And all the removed gases would be flooded with ambient air through the make up so, this arrangement seems to do what its designed to do if you use ducts.

Hatches that are decking have to be heavier than those that aren't walked on so a heavy duty deck hatch was needed. 20lb ? heavy? I'm not sure it had to be that heavy? but it probably won't cave in?

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:18 pm

Most of the hatch weight comes from the 3/16" decking material. I added a 1 x 3\16" underside frame. Then i built a 14 gauge slip over box to cover the 2.5" of foam. It's pretty hard to make it any lighter weight then that. And I built the fish box with the idea in mind that glacier Ice is not light weight. Someone will fish a 40 lb chunk of ice out of the water and slide it across the deck and drop it down the hole. 40 lbs chunk dropping 14" is going to be a pretty big impact at the fish box bottom. Plus when you think about packing that fish box full of ice I'm bet it's going to be 150-200lbs, then start pounding waves....in my view you need a strong box!

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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:35 pm

I've already purchased a bilge gasoline/ propane fume alarm system so that will make it a bit safer too

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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:13 am

I bent and tacked this first radar arch attempt together tonight after work out of scrap 1" pipe. There is 17" of space between the rack bottom and cabin roof top. I think that's enough room for a raft to fit under. I can still incorporate my fold down arch idea even if I weld the rack solid and pivot the whole unit on its back it will be about the same height as the offset up rear roof top line. I think it would look pretty cool to skin it and give it the rounded smooth look too. I have fresh new pipe standing up in the corner ready to bend up. Any other sugestions? Oh and if I skin it I was thinking I could come up inside the arch webbed foot with my cabin roof wire penetration . That would hide the ugly roof pipe stub up and water proof the penetration hole!
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:50 am

Well...there it is! My whole weekend!! All 21 pounds of it. I'm not so sure I even like it better than the plane pipes. My neighbor said it looks like it belongs on a space ship! Maybe he's right again I don't know. I mean to me it looks fine but not sure it was worth the time. Oh well its done. At least for now. Hey... maybe I could add it to the muscle car parts pile...it kinda looks like it would work as a spoiler!!
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Tfitz
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:33 pm

The longer I work around the radar arch the more i like it. And the hinging forward and roof wireway penetration ideas worked as good as I had hoped. I'm just glad I'm done and don't have to backtrack wasting time redoing anything. I just installed my new steering cable and it fits! Moving the steering from left hand to right hand made the cable length 7' shorter. I'm glad I'm done with most of the artsy fartsy fabrication work. I've got quite a few loose end type jobs to finish but I can start to see the light at the end of a long long tunnel.
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

Post by Tfitz » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:42 pm

Oh, And this arch is SOLID! You can sit or stand on it and it does not move at all. It is locked down firm as anything on the boat.

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