24' DYI alloy remodel
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Some of these welds look worse in the photos than they really are but if I wanted them to look better what if I used my saw and cut a line (not all the way through) up the middle of the drag weld and big gap weld across the roof at the window openings and rewelded in long, even, built up more, weld bead? On one weld I was fighting contamination and the other weld I was was just joining two 1/8" with no backer plate. I used a 1/2" round stock as a backer plate and in places it was too far away from the sheet for me to weld to. So the weld would kind of collapse and I would have to pause while welding to fill the hole. My point is things got a little lumpy in places as I crossed these issues. Would welding over these welds clean them up or make a mess?
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, I guess the various types of welds are becoming more familiar some looked in good proportion and others, where you note the prep was lacking you're seeing how hard it is to get good welds?
I think the tie ins, starts and stops are the next big challenge for your welding skills, keeping the lumps down or out of welds in the beginning and ends isn't all that easy and takes technique work for most of us. Also cupping those zones where welds will tie in using the ball type carbide cutter is a big help. So is 'race tracking' or back tracking the beginning and ends and so is 'whipping out' or 'snapping out' at the end of a weld. (All these terms are names of practices commonly used in aluminum MIG but not done exactly the same among MIG welders.)
Time to prep versus time to weld, in boat work, is about 10:1 if you include layout and cutting, down to maybe 5: or 6:1 if you have a boat kit or an NC cut package so repair work is probably higher- maybe 15:1 in regards ratio of overall work to weld time.
I rely almost totally on a TIG torch to be able to tie in welds with lumpy ends, to put welds in places where I need to move slower in order to get control of the weld where MIG is just to fast from my reflexes to gain and hold control of some welds. So you're seeing why most of the full time builders would stop MIG work in certain circumstances and go to TIG, even though its relatively expensive and time consuming compared to MIG?
The cabin side to deck welds look like they ended with a good uniform bead, little distortion that I can see and a relatively small bead? That's a good job in my view, the windscreen welds are another matter.
Here is where joint prep shows its effects. If you build a house or even a shed that has a foundation and its not level or well fit, then all the steps above it are effected. The whole series of building stages following are countering for the poor beginning. This seems what's happening on the windscreen to cabin top weld as near as I can see in these photos?
One shortcoming leads to another and the result is not as nice a weld seam as your cabin to side deck welds where the prep allowed a much smaller and more uniform weld put down in passes that gave you good control. Gap, cleaning issues, weld position, backing the gap, all sorts of things seem to contribute to the less uniform welds shown.
I wouldn't weld over the welds shown unless I could dress the face of the bead using a trim router or some other tool personally. IF you used a routed on a (back slide) base, with a ball tipped cutter, then base would slide over the cabin top, evening the ball tip's reach and not following ups and downs of the weld. This would allow a planing action to cut the tops off the higher bead crowns while skipping the lower trough areas that are low. Then after a half dozen passes slowly cutting a uniform curved weld groove, and not following the up and down of the irregularly shaped weld top shown... then I'd consider a top weld since I'd have; #1 heat cleaned weld zone, #2 uniform sides to the weld zone allowing visual tracking of the beading -missing from the first pass; #3 uniform depth to the weld with uniform backing (original weld) and #4 you'd have an already fixed joint that would resist the warping and distortion that might come from a wide 'buttered' filler that would only make the joint worse.
So, to try to address the question about the seam being re-welded; if you gain full control; Yes. If you're not going to gain full control of the prep; No. Don't make it worse with gas bubbles that aren't cut out or dressed to a uniform weld joint prep, just sand off the higher bead crowns to make the weld less irregular and leave it, unless there are holes that drip?
not sure I'm helping all that much, but the prep has to be good enough to weld well enough to accept- or: you're just going backwards.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
I think the tie ins, starts and stops are the next big challenge for your welding skills, keeping the lumps down or out of welds in the beginning and ends isn't all that easy and takes technique work for most of us. Also cupping those zones where welds will tie in using the ball type carbide cutter is a big help. So is 'race tracking' or back tracking the beginning and ends and so is 'whipping out' or 'snapping out' at the end of a weld. (All these terms are names of practices commonly used in aluminum MIG but not done exactly the same among MIG welders.)
Time to prep versus time to weld, in boat work, is about 10:1 if you include layout and cutting, down to maybe 5: or 6:1 if you have a boat kit or an NC cut package so repair work is probably higher- maybe 15:1 in regards ratio of overall work to weld time.
I rely almost totally on a TIG torch to be able to tie in welds with lumpy ends, to put welds in places where I need to move slower in order to get control of the weld where MIG is just to fast from my reflexes to gain and hold control of some welds. So you're seeing why most of the full time builders would stop MIG work in certain circumstances and go to TIG, even though its relatively expensive and time consuming compared to MIG?
The cabin side to deck welds look like they ended with a good uniform bead, little distortion that I can see and a relatively small bead? That's a good job in my view, the windscreen welds are another matter.
Here is where joint prep shows its effects. If you build a house or even a shed that has a foundation and its not level or well fit, then all the steps above it are effected. The whole series of building stages following are countering for the poor beginning. This seems what's happening on the windscreen to cabin top weld as near as I can see in these photos?
One shortcoming leads to another and the result is not as nice a weld seam as your cabin to side deck welds where the prep allowed a much smaller and more uniform weld put down in passes that gave you good control. Gap, cleaning issues, weld position, backing the gap, all sorts of things seem to contribute to the less uniform welds shown.
I wouldn't weld over the welds shown unless I could dress the face of the bead using a trim router or some other tool personally. IF you used a routed on a (back slide) base, with a ball tipped cutter, then base would slide over the cabin top, evening the ball tip's reach and not following ups and downs of the weld. This would allow a planing action to cut the tops off the higher bead crowns while skipping the lower trough areas that are low. Then after a half dozen passes slowly cutting a uniform curved weld groove, and not following the up and down of the irregularly shaped weld top shown... then I'd consider a top weld since I'd have; #1 heat cleaned weld zone, #2 uniform sides to the weld zone allowing visual tracking of the beading -missing from the first pass; #3 uniform depth to the weld with uniform backing (original weld) and #4 you'd have an already fixed joint that would resist the warping and distortion that might come from a wide 'buttered' filler that would only make the joint worse.
So, to try to address the question about the seam being re-welded; if you gain full control; Yes. If you're not going to gain full control of the prep; No. Don't make it worse with gas bubbles that aren't cut out or dressed to a uniform weld joint prep, just sand off the higher bead crowns to make the weld less irregular and leave it, unless there are holes that drip?
not sure I'm helping all that much, but the prep has to be good enough to weld well enough to accept- or: you're just going backwards.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Yes you answered my question perfectly. I'm going to leave it alone. There are no holes and it dosent look bad in my opinion and the fish don't really care about things like that
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
I did grind my beginnings and end welds out with a little ball carbide bit. So apparently I didn't "whip out" correctly? What is that? Or what should I do when starting and finishing a weld to avoid the bumps? I notice when I get out of a puddle quick I leave a divit with a pin hole in the bottom.
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
When I prepped for the roof to cabin windscreen weld (dirty), I used the acid cleaner twice and wire brushed it twice. So from now on I will not depend in that acid aluminum welding cleaner to prep for any more of my welds. Both times I've tried it have failed. Taking the surface off down to the parent metal with a carbide bit is the method that works for me.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, we've had some discussions here (no links but they're here 
) about corrosion and I've made some illustrations of the cells that happen in some cases. If these cells, as I've shown are below the surface and have some covering they could get a little bit of liquid 'cleaner' in them.. and when heated that would turn to steam and that will not weld.
I suspect you're correct that the acid cleaner is a mixed results tool. In cases where the pieces are new, not tacked up and loose where they're coated to clean then rinsed and acetone wiped; that stuff probably performs at one level but left inside the joint, inside a corrosion cell pocket, or not wiped up and dried thoroughly I think the water component in the wash is likely causing weld problems?
Starting and stopping the MIG bead is also something I think, not positive, that we've gone over? I'm working on a project so I don't' have time to make illustrations or look those up, but... I think we've gone over that in a thread here? In general the techniques have been discussed and reviewed (until I have time to check myself) so I'll leave you to the Search function. NOTE: the search function has frustrated me before when I couldn't think of how to search so it was my 5th or 8th try before I found what I was looking for! I'd typed the post orginally and couldn't find the thing without multiple tries.
There are methods that can help reduce lumps on both ends and avoid the crater crack too.
cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
) about corrosion and I've made some illustrations of the cells that happen in some cases. If these cells, as I've shown are below the surface and have some covering they could get a little bit of liquid 'cleaner' in them.. and when heated that would turn to steam and that will not weld.I suspect you're correct that the acid cleaner is a mixed results tool. In cases where the pieces are new, not tacked up and loose where they're coated to clean then rinsed and acetone wiped; that stuff probably performs at one level but left inside the joint, inside a corrosion cell pocket, or not wiped up and dried thoroughly I think the water component in the wash is likely causing weld problems?
Starting and stopping the MIG bead is also something I think, not positive, that we've gone over? I'm working on a project so I don't' have time to make illustrations or look those up, but... I think we've gone over that in a thread here? In general the techniques have been discussed and reviewed (until I have time to check myself) so I'll leave you to the Search function. NOTE: the search function has frustrated me before when I couldn't think of how to search so it was my 5th or 8th try before I found what I was looking for! I'd typed the post orginally and couldn't find the thing without multiple tries.
There are methods that can help reduce lumps on both ends and avoid the crater crack too.
cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
The back gouging tool Kevin showed with three 4 inch blades is interesting to me. I have a similar Makita but it is designed for one blade. I have never seen several blades mounted at once and want to make sure this tool is not designed for three before I mount three blades on mky Makita. Also are you using a 4 inch blade on a 4.5 inch tool so the blade tip speed is slowed down and is less likely to melt rather than cut. D
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
downline, the makita grinder is designed to hold grinding only discs but they're often the thickness of the combined set of the Freud/Diablo blade blanks. I did intentionally stagger the teeth so the blades will lay blank to blank or flat sheet metal to sheet metal under the hub nut tightened on all three blades.
The size of the blades is what Diablo/Freud makes, not any selection on my part. The main consideration of the this tool is that it rides on the almost constant carbide tip spacing. The primary danger in all gouging, back chipping and other similar cutting operations is the tip digging into the metal, pulling up a large chip in that one tip's cut, pulling the tool so your hands get involved in the cutting process.
The name meat axe, widow maker, and all that comes from using one blade where accidents may happen, with the arrangement I show, there is almost never an instance where the tool behaves other than very smooth and gentle (relative term) compared to the single blade versions where it can be a problem.
The limit of this tooling is the shape of the (square) gouge shape, that is not V'd or pointed so it requires a bit of tool sense to orient well and get the most for the back gouging of double sided welds, where the outside weld has penetrated in a 'sag' pattern of a rounded and oxide coated bulge inside the unwelded side. This tool is intended to be able to open up the back side, by cleaning both the sag or penetration bulge AND skim the surface off the sides of the unwelded parent metal leaving a clean surface to weld.
In its more advanced uses, it will bevel weld edges for plates, and sheets where a sander or grinder might also be used, but this tool, used by the more experienced tradesman, will also allow fairly even control of beveling of other joints.
The main reason to rig in this pattern instead of the single blade in this configuration is the safety of having the blade set 'float' on the work where thin passes come off easily and smoothly with no grabbing.
Hope this helps, as mentioned in my introduction to the tool, it is not safe for anyone who is not used to using metal dressing tools of this nature, and AAB.com does not advocate you assemble one, it is here for educational purposes to explain some of the techniques used by full time tradesmen not to suggest you assemble these blades on a grinder intended primarily for sanding and abrasive grinding purposes.
Work Safe; the forward case handles are not shown for photographic convenience- and there are several geometric variations o these handles regularly used.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
The size of the blades is what Diablo/Freud makes, not any selection on my part. The main consideration of the this tool is that it rides on the almost constant carbide tip spacing. The primary danger in all gouging, back chipping and other similar cutting operations is the tip digging into the metal, pulling up a large chip in that one tip's cut, pulling the tool so your hands get involved in the cutting process.
The name meat axe, widow maker, and all that comes from using one blade where accidents may happen, with the arrangement I show, there is almost never an instance where the tool behaves other than very smooth and gentle (relative term) compared to the single blade versions where it can be a problem.
The limit of this tooling is the shape of the (square) gouge shape, that is not V'd or pointed so it requires a bit of tool sense to orient well and get the most for the back gouging of double sided welds, where the outside weld has penetrated in a 'sag' pattern of a rounded and oxide coated bulge inside the unwelded side. This tool is intended to be able to open up the back side, by cleaning both the sag or penetration bulge AND skim the surface off the sides of the unwelded parent metal leaving a clean surface to weld.
In its more advanced uses, it will bevel weld edges for plates, and sheets where a sander or grinder might also be used, but this tool, used by the more experienced tradesman, will also allow fairly even control of beveling of other joints.
The main reason to rig in this pattern instead of the single blade in this configuration is the safety of having the blade set 'float' on the work where thin passes come off easily and smoothly with no grabbing.
Hope this helps, as mentioned in my introduction to the tool, it is not safe for anyone who is not used to using metal dressing tools of this nature, and AAB.com does not advocate you assemble one, it is here for educational purposes to explain some of the techniques used by full time tradesmen not to suggest you assemble these blades on a grinder intended primarily for sanding and abrasive grinding purposes.
Work Safe; the forward case handles are not shown for photographic convenience- and there are several geometric variations o these handles regularly used.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
The roof extension, drum winch recess box, and pulpit came together pretty good. Kmorin you were correct when you said I should have replaced the whole side of my roof extension instead of adding 5 inches to the existing roof wall. That was a pain in the backside. It's pretty easy to see the weld line where i added the 5" extension. It looks OK.. but even after grinding smooth and blending it could be better. Replacing the whole side would have been the way to go. Welding up the saw gouge, 5/16 holes, and patch were easy and fast. I like the 3/64 wire now. I use it on anything 3/16" or heavier. I'm getting real comfortable working with this aluminum and enjoy the welding. Half the battle was figuring out how my spool gun functions. Problems that I thought were my welder settings were really just small issues with my spool gun that I can recognize now. The next thing will be is to weld on the half pipe rub rails around the boat. That will be a couple hundred feet of more welding practice. Anything it should watch out for welding the half pipes on?
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, this implies your standard of the craft is growing so all the back and forth, and discussion is worthwhile. When new to the trades people begin to self evaluate upwards.... us old guys are heartened. Those of us who have taken time to see if we could refine our skills and knowledge come to the AAB.com Forum to share, with the hope that guys like you will 'have ears to hear' and that will mean their work improves.Tfitz wrote: it could be better.
Your remark shows that attitude, thanks.
I'd look closely at the top of the half pipe weld geometry to explore if the weld will be more compact and less distortion if the top or/and bottom edges were beveled? Not sure of the relationship of the half pipe to plate width so the bead's location is not crystal clear
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
I actually havnt held the half pipe up to the hull yet (it's in 25' lengths) But I know what your getting at. I have couple days of prep before I need any half pipe. I have lots of nasty oxidation to remove that was under the rubber bumper.
I hope your still thinking about my cabin extension. At some point 2 or 4 weeks from now I'm going to ask you about it. And also I would like you to take a structural look at the hull. I have some broken welds to fix but now is the time to beef things up if I need too. The boats you build have massive amounts of vertical, bulkhead supports, and my boat has very little of that. Don't comment on the support yet wait until I take some photos. This boat has been around for 25 years so it must not be too bad but it dosent have the hull support of other welded ocean boats I've seen.
I hope your still thinking about my cabin extension. At some point 2 or 4 weeks from now I'm going to ask you about it. And also I would like you to take a structural look at the hull. I have some broken welds to fix but now is the time to beef things up if I need too. The boats you build have massive amounts of vertical, bulkhead supports, and my boat has very little of that. Don't comment on the support yet wait until I take some photos. This boat has been around for 25 years so it must not be too bad but it dosent have the hull support of other welded ocean boats I've seen.
Last edited by Tfitz on Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tiftz,
put the 3M Scotchbrite (tm) buffer pads on the lower 5" trunk strip and it will help to make the seam less contrasting and therefore less visible?
I recently repaired an entire flat on a boat that had D rubber installed, but the Tef-gel rinsed out over time and the SS bolts to aluminum formed galvanic cells and pitted this 1/4" bar wrapped around the hull at the same location. I was in a position to cure the 'rot' by TIG welding the entire 60' of sheer. I know that may not seem to be the simplest method but I could gouge the corrosion, weld and leave it to cool then move on to another location. It still took several days to fill the corrosion pits.
Maybe I'll get energetic and post the images of that work(?), but to go back to your sheer, MIG welding to fill pits unless they're totally cleaned with a carbide burr is very time consuming. My experience with MIG filling pits is so poor that I'd say a Rule of Thumb (RoT) was, " If you ain't using TIG; don't bother"
One of the benefits of using a covering 1/2 pipe extrusion is the metal to metal weld won't corrode in the future. The other advantage is the increased size of the structural element around the gunwale of the skiff. An half pipe shape welded continuously sure does reinforce any underlying thinning by the pitting from the neoprene and or SS bolts that pits the sheer plate.
Just a reminder; the top and bottom of the existing strip will have to provide sufficiently clean and corrosion free metal to perform a full well. If the added pipe is welded on, and at some location the MIG weld crosses a pitting 'pocket' the weld will boil up and become 'swiss cheese'.
I'll look more closely at the cabin work when you get there and if you have pics of the structural elements in question the we can discuss them in detail.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
put the 3M Scotchbrite (tm) buffer pads on the lower 5" trunk strip and it will help to make the seam less contrasting and therefore less visible?
I recently repaired an entire flat on a boat that had D rubber installed, but the Tef-gel rinsed out over time and the SS bolts to aluminum formed galvanic cells and pitted this 1/4" bar wrapped around the hull at the same location. I was in a position to cure the 'rot' by TIG welding the entire 60' of sheer. I know that may not seem to be the simplest method but I could gouge the corrosion, weld and leave it to cool then move on to another location. It still took several days to fill the corrosion pits.
Maybe I'll get energetic and post the images of that work(?), but to go back to your sheer, MIG welding to fill pits unless they're totally cleaned with a carbide burr is very time consuming. My experience with MIG filling pits is so poor that I'd say a Rule of Thumb (RoT) was, " If you ain't using TIG; don't bother"
One of the benefits of using a covering 1/2 pipe extrusion is the metal to metal weld won't corrode in the future. The other advantage is the increased size of the structural element around the gunwale of the skiff. An half pipe shape welded continuously sure does reinforce any underlying thinning by the pitting from the neoprene and or SS bolts that pits the sheer plate.
Just a reminder; the top and bottom of the existing strip will have to provide sufficiently clean and corrosion free metal to perform a full well. If the added pipe is welded on, and at some location the MIG weld crosses a pitting 'pocket' the weld will boil up and become 'swiss cheese'.
I'll look more closely at the cabin work when you get there and if you have pics of the structural elements in question the we can discuss them in detail.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
I plan to drum sand my entire boat with scotch Brite material then acid wash inside and out when all the mods and welding are done. It really shines up quick with the drum sander/Scott Brite set up.
I wire wheeled, acid washed, and water rinsed all the corroded under bumper area around the whole boat, then beveled the hole edges to get them clean metal to weld shut. It went suprisingly quick. I'm done and ready to weld them shut tomorrow. I wouldn't want moist cabin air to condensate inside the half pipe and keep the corrosion areas wet. I plan to weld the half pipe continuous, top and bottom all around, make it air/water tight. Sound ok Kevin? Should I weld it in 6" or 12" length welds to keep the warpage at bay? Tack it down good then weld fore, mid, and aft then split the difference and keep doing that until all is welded?
I wire wheeled, acid washed, and water rinsed all the corroded under bumper area around the whole boat, then beveled the hole edges to get them clean metal to weld shut. It went suprisingly quick. I'm done and ready to weld them shut tomorrow. I wouldn't want moist cabin air to condensate inside the half pipe and keep the corrosion areas wet. I plan to weld the half pipe continuous, top and bottom all around, make it air/water tight. Sound ok Kevin? Should I weld it in 6" or 12" length welds to keep the warpage at bay? Tack it down good then weld fore, mid, and aft then split the difference and keep doing that until all is welded?
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
I am kind of imbarrased to say bought this boat. The hull looked great to me from the outside. But I didn't know much about boat structural design to know what to look for. Anyways, the photos speak for them selves. It has held up for years and years as is. I'm not looking for extra things to do to this boat but I need to fix all the broken welds at least and maybe add some support to keep it from happening again. I know allot more about good welds and aluminum boat problems now conpaired to when I bought the boat last year. Oh well, live and learn and just fix it the best I can. Don't beat me up too bad. I know the builder did a bad job on everything that was out of sight but I own it now and I'm determined to make it work out. The keel and ribs are 2 1/2" x 3/8" and the front to back stringers are 1 1/4" x 3/8" and the angle is all 1/4" x 2". 1/4" bottom 3/16" sides 1/8" top.
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, the concept of filling those holes is good; the practice, even with some beveling to get exposed underlying clean metal, may still be somewhat a chore? I hope you're able to fill them using a TIG torch since the MIG is often ill suited to burning out pockets of buried corrosion. Some of he biggest headaches are coming from the surrounding pitting still present.
As to the half pipe wrap for a rub railing around the boat. If the welds are essentially above and below the railing with the main corrosion then I'd back bevel the pipe about 20 degrees to open up the edge of the extrusion more than lapping the weld outside. If the MIG weld hits a pocket that boils up, I'd skip the spot and keep going, come back with the carbide tool to cut out the junk and try again.
I'd stitch this personally but doing so does slow the process a bit, moving around with a spool gun is not very slow, so you could walk up and down one side, then move to the other side and work around filling in the various welds, I'd work to keep the bead very narrow if possible.
As to the structural welds failing, in my view of these photos, the main event is original cold welds. These welds were so poorly done to begin they've simply lost their limited grip on the parent metal and a lot of that seems obvious from the curled edges on the thicker bars? I'd say if they were cut out, cleaned and then put in a welds; they'd go to work and do their job?
lots of the original welds seem fairly poorly done in the photos you've shown, so cold lapping on thick to thin joints may be a typical problem. I call a crack down the middle of a weld a weld failure where the joint may need some reinforcement since the weld stuck as best it could but simply was not enough strength. But when the welds just lift off of one side of the joint, while failed, the indication to me is one of cold welding not joint failure from lack of strength. The lack is in fusion of the original weld- just poor workmanship.
I think all the transverse frames with a bottom piece and a top or deck cross pieces- should be filled in with some more angle extrusion webbing so they form a truss as they were original designed to do? They look too open and unsupported in the photos shown?
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
As to the half pipe wrap for a rub railing around the boat. If the welds are essentially above and below the railing with the main corrosion then I'd back bevel the pipe about 20 degrees to open up the edge of the extrusion more than lapping the weld outside. If the MIG weld hits a pocket that boils up, I'd skip the spot and keep going, come back with the carbide tool to cut out the junk and try again.
I'd stitch this personally but doing so does slow the process a bit, moving around with a spool gun is not very slow, so you could walk up and down one side, then move to the other side and work around filling in the various welds, I'd work to keep the bead very narrow if possible.
As to the structural welds failing, in my view of these photos, the main event is original cold welds. These welds were so poorly done to begin they've simply lost their limited grip on the parent metal and a lot of that seems obvious from the curled edges on the thicker bars? I'd say if they were cut out, cleaned and then put in a welds; they'd go to work and do their job?
lots of the original welds seem fairly poorly done in the photos you've shown, so cold lapping on thick to thin joints may be a typical problem. I call a crack down the middle of a weld a weld failure where the joint may need some reinforcement since the weld stuck as best it could but simply was not enough strength. But when the welds just lift off of one side of the joint, while failed, the indication to me is one of cold welding not joint failure from lack of strength. The lack is in fusion of the original weld- just poor workmanship.
I think all the transverse frames with a bottom piece and a top or deck cross pieces- should be filled in with some more angle extrusion webbing so they form a truss as they were original designed to do? They look too open and unsupported in the photos shown?
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Those holes filled up beautifully! Only a few times did I hit contamination and it was a very small "pop" and I was able to burn it out quickly. I must have had better parent material than you thought. I discovered something..if I half triggered the gun I stopped welding but the gas keeps flowing and you can make your welds finish out nice n clean. I started the slow process of taking off the surface contamination with a carbide bit and die grinder. Any better ideas how to clean it? I probably hàve one full evening of just doing that. And another evening of putting a 20 deg bevel on 100' of half pipe with my die grinder.
I can grind out and reweld those bad broken welds easy enough. I have some ideas how to beef up those trusses when I get to that point I will lay out what I had in mind and see what you think. I'm relieved you didn't tell me to sell it for scrap. Without a dought there are lots of bad looking welds but most have been holding for 25 years and I can fix the few that didn't and make it stronger by adding more support. What I don't understand is some boats have multiple bow to stern 1/4" x 12" vertical bulkhead hull supports and mine boat has 1 1/4" x 3/8" strips for hull support. Do I have a lake boat or an ocean boat? For 15 years I owned a Starcraft Cheifton rivited hull and went everywhere in Eastern PWS including Cordova and Hitchenbrook and Montegue Island, multiple times. That boat was a beer can conpaired to this boat but it worked! And I survived! And had a 100 unbeleveably great trips. So This boat should work for me. I just need to keep beating on it.
I can grind out and reweld those bad broken welds easy enough. I have some ideas how to beef up those trusses when I get to that point I will lay out what I had in mind and see what you think. I'm relieved you didn't tell me to sell it for scrap. Without a dought there are lots of bad looking welds but most have been holding for 25 years and I can fix the few that didn't and make it stronger by adding more support. What I don't understand is some boats have multiple bow to stern 1/4" x 12" vertical bulkhead hull supports and mine boat has 1 1/4" x 3/8" strips for hull support. Do I have a lake boat or an ocean boat? For 15 years I owned a Starcraft Cheifton rivited hull and went everywhere in Eastern PWS including Cordova and Hitchenbrook and Montegue Island, multiple times. That boat was a beer can conpaired to this boat but it worked! And I survived! And had a 100 unbeleveably great trips. So This boat should work for me. I just need to keep beating on it.
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- Holes filled
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- Beveled half pipe
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- Carbide bit surface contamination removal
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
So I should keep the bead narrow when I weld this half pipe down just to keep my heat to a minimum to avoid distortion or what? Should I weld hot and fast drag bead with 3/64". Or .035 with a pattern weld? 12" welds or 6" to keep things cooler? There is allot of metal there. The builder used 1/2" round stock at all the angle changes so every corner has a good heat sink
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, I think you'll have to use 0.045" wire as the 0.035" probably won't carry enough heat to fuse those three or four pieces together? I'd say that the huge mass of finally welded material means that distortion is not to likely, I'd weld a 8" or 12" pass whatever you can do the most efficiently and consistently. To me the uniformity of such a prominent weld is important so if you're straining after a full foot of weld to remain in good position? shorten the passes up.
IF you can get a good brace/bracket/fixture to guide, weld longer and faster.
The idea for the pipe bevel is to allow a narrow bead (faster) to have a greater root face so that weld has more integrity in a narrower area. Not sure how to restate that so it comes over online? The shape of the C of the half pipe will have a full thickness unless beveled so the weld wattage to fuse the side and extrusion is used to get the two (edge of pipe unbeveled) cross sections to melt. If the edge were beveled there's less metal mass to soak up wattage to achieve melting point, so the weld heat (whatever it is?) is used to heat up the two pieces of the hull plus the round rod backer element; all of which are conducting heat of fusion away (chilling) from the weld zone.
So if the edge is beveled there is a root face increase, on what is essentially thinner metal so the weld can fuse the underlying parent metal to the newly added extrusion better than if you have to put a huge 1/2" wide flat layered bead onto the full edge of the half pipe AND the three pieces of the existing hull.
If your drag/stringer style bead is uniform and you can run fast and hot (deep and clean) that weld works fine. If on the other hand you're having better consistency with a patterned weld? use that style. What I'm considering important is to carry lots of heat to get a good fusion in what you're describing as about 5/8" thick metal!
Depending on some bench set up tests, you may end up with a whipped bead using the bigger wire so you can carry the wattage needed to get all that metal fused?
On the thicker flat bar replacement welds and repairs don't hesitate to pre-heat the weld zones, just make sure you tooth brush before lighting up as the gas flame usually leaves some contaminants- dried but residual and therefore a couple swipes with the SS wire brush breaks up the oxide into 'rows' or scarifies the oxides that makes them lift off in the argon flow and leave a clean weld.
There are temperature crayons at the welding store, these crayons look like lumber marking chalk sticks but will have a temp on them and they melt at that temp. So when preheating thicker metal to say 200F that crayon will smear/melt/slime the metal at that temp. If the metal is not that temp the crayon will mark like chalk instead. This is an easy way to preheat and control the heat. Then the welds will go onto a thick/thin joint easier with good fusion on the heavy material side- that was not done on the original welds shown above.
cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
IF you can get a good brace/bracket/fixture to guide, weld longer and faster.
The idea for the pipe bevel is to allow a narrow bead (faster) to have a greater root face so that weld has more integrity in a narrower area. Not sure how to restate that so it comes over online? The shape of the C of the half pipe will have a full thickness unless beveled so the weld wattage to fuse the side and extrusion is used to get the two (edge of pipe unbeveled) cross sections to melt. If the edge were beveled there's less metal mass to soak up wattage to achieve melting point, so the weld heat (whatever it is?) is used to heat up the two pieces of the hull plus the round rod backer element; all of which are conducting heat of fusion away (chilling) from the weld zone.
So if the edge is beveled there is a root face increase, on what is essentially thinner metal so the weld can fuse the underlying parent metal to the newly added extrusion better than if you have to put a huge 1/2" wide flat layered bead onto the full edge of the half pipe AND the three pieces of the existing hull.
If your drag/stringer style bead is uniform and you can run fast and hot (deep and clean) that weld works fine. If on the other hand you're having better consistency with a patterned weld? use that style. What I'm considering important is to carry lots of heat to get a good fusion in what you're describing as about 5/8" thick metal!
Depending on some bench set up tests, you may end up with a whipped bead using the bigger wire so you can carry the wattage needed to get all that metal fused?
On the thicker flat bar replacement welds and repairs don't hesitate to pre-heat the weld zones, just make sure you tooth brush before lighting up as the gas flame usually leaves some contaminants- dried but residual and therefore a couple swipes with the SS wire brush breaks up the oxide into 'rows' or scarifies the oxides that makes them lift off in the argon flow and leave a clean weld.
There are temperature crayons at the welding store, these crayons look like lumber marking chalk sticks but will have a temp on them and they melt at that temp. So when preheating thicker metal to say 200F that crayon will smear/melt/slime the metal at that temp. If the metal is not that temp the crayon will mark like chalk instead. This is an easy way to preheat and control the heat. Then the welds will go onto a thick/thin joint easier with good fusion on the heavy material side- that was not done on the original welds shown above.
cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
When you weld the underside of the 1/2 pipe do you drop the voltage / wire settings down a little? Or just speed up if you see your puddle beginning to sag? I havnt had to weld allot of overhead yet. The vertical seems to weld fine. I read some where to try to never weld Aluminum down hill because lack of penetration.
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kmorin
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welding positions
Tfitz, overhead is easier in many respects than other welds since the freedom of the torch movement is greater. But leave the settings alone and go for it, same over as horizontal.
I weld down all the time and its fine, weld prep is key to all penetration in aluminum nothing really to do with position of weld. Up is usually just bulky I'd weld down over up in all thin stuff personally.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
I weld down all the time and its fine, weld prep is key to all penetration in aluminum nothing really to do with position of weld. Up is usually just bulky I'd weld down over up in all thin stuff personally.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
That's all great info Thanks Kevin I will give it a try
Re: 24' DIY alloy remodel
I finnished getting the 1/2 pipe beveled and the hull clean to good parent metal around the boat at the bumper area tonight. It was too late to start welding but I put the 1/2 pipe in position and tried to flex it into position from bow to stern. Holy cow 6061 is some very stiff alloy! I think I'm going to need some help forcing it into position! I didn't try that hard because I really wasn't ready but I hope it is not too brittle? Did I buy the wrong alloy to shape it to fit my boat perimiter or do I just need to put some more muscle into it? I guess that's why they call it hull stiffener...
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
Tfitz, the half pipe is not called hull stiffener that is a rounded channel like extrusion. But the forward end will be some work to pull in cold. I'd suggest that you start at the bow if possible work aft, so the full length of the remaining 25' can be used as big long lever? If the shop is too narrow to do that, and you have to start at the stern, then I'd consider getting the forward 1/3 of the half pipe rolled? It possible?
Last if neither of these methods will work then I'd consider building a set of 'dogs-for-wedges' or plate cut to straddle the half pipe and tack weld to the upper and lower hull panels and a set of wood wedges to drive under the plate to pull the half pipe tight to the side of the boat. This has to be done with three to five dogs or the pipe may kink of take out your tacks, but with set of dogs along the sheer at 12-16" intervals from the middle of the main cabin forward, you should be able to pull the half pipe in in stages by tapping the aft most wedge then working forward a few hammer strokes at a time to the foremost dog and wedge set. This way the half pipe bends cold, is tacked in pre-marked pattern of tacks and those tacks don't allow the extrusion to bend or kink beyond small wrinkles that will blend into the final weld.
6061 T6 is the only alloy I'm aware that 1/2 pipe is available without buying mill quantities (1,000 to 5,000 lb!!) and it is stiff or it wouldn't be much or a rub rail.
(somehow I missed post #66 in the reading this thread) so I didn't reply be I've just seen it the first time today. You seem to have gotten fillers in each hole? ON last method I've used to put on stiff extrusions is to drill holes in the gunwale and use allthread! but you've filled those holes and besides to make that method work, you have to have full access to the insides of the boat's hull to fill the holes when the outside extrusion is tacked/welded on.
One last method, that may not be as useful because of the work to use, a full height (of the sides and cabin), 'log peavey' can be built to pull in extrusions.
the outside clamp tool here; is reaching over the gunwale of a skiff so your application would have to have a truck strap over the cabin! (lots of effort) and the bottom of this one is pulling on the main beam of a Davis Jig rotisserie fixture, so again, your application of this method would need to essentially wrap the boat since I don't think pulling on the cabin side at the window or the new trunk off lots of purchase?
Anyway this method does work pretty fast, allowing you put on a stiff extrusion by yourself; IF you can find a place to pull/clamp/push from? I used the furniture clamp to lead the extrusion along the layout marks and the slight up angle of the sliding middle clamp leg to keep pulling upward as this 4"x2"x1/4" angle had to be rolled upward as it was pulled inward to the side and then pulled upward too.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Last if neither of these methods will work then I'd consider building a set of 'dogs-for-wedges' or plate cut to straddle the half pipe and tack weld to the upper and lower hull panels and a set of wood wedges to drive under the plate to pull the half pipe tight to the side of the boat. This has to be done with three to five dogs or the pipe may kink of take out your tacks, but with set of dogs along the sheer at 12-16" intervals from the middle of the main cabin forward, you should be able to pull the half pipe in in stages by tapping the aft most wedge then working forward a few hammer strokes at a time to the foremost dog and wedge set. This way the half pipe bends cold, is tacked in pre-marked pattern of tacks and those tacks don't allow the extrusion to bend or kink beyond small wrinkles that will blend into the final weld.
6061 T6 is the only alloy I'm aware that 1/2 pipe is available without buying mill quantities (1,000 to 5,000 lb!!) and it is stiff or it wouldn't be much or a rub rail.
(somehow I missed post #66 in the reading this thread) so I didn't reply be I've just seen it the first time today. You seem to have gotten fillers in each hole? ON last method I've used to put on stiff extrusions is to drill holes in the gunwale and use allthread! but you've filled those holes and besides to make that method work, you have to have full access to the insides of the boat's hull to fill the holes when the outside extrusion is tacked/welded on.
One last method, that may not be as useful because of the work to use, a full height (of the sides and cabin), 'log peavey' can be built to pull in extrusions.
the outside clamp tool here; is reaching over the gunwale of a skiff so your application would have to have a truck strap over the cabin! (lots of effort) and the bottom of this one is pulling on the main beam of a Davis Jig rotisserie fixture, so again, your application of this method would need to essentially wrap the boat since I don't think pulling on the cabin side at the window or the new trunk off lots of purchase?
Anyway this method does work pretty fast, allowing you put on a stiff extrusion by yourself; IF you can find a place to pull/clamp/push from? I used the furniture clamp to lead the extrusion along the layout marks and the slight up angle of the sliding middle clamp leg to keep pulling upward as this 4"x2"x1/4" angle had to be rolled upward as it was pulled inward to the side and then pulled upward too.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
You have sure have done it all in every which way. I was aready planning to try your method #1. I secured a board I between my pulpit brackets to pry against as I used all that leverage of the pipe to use a rope comealong to suck it into the boat gradually as I tack it every few inches. I will take few photos. I have enough room in my shop to do one side at a time and will just move the boat over to do the other side. This is all theory talk. I have know idea how I will end up doing it. Yesterday I ordered a flexable spoolgun tip / barrel. I could see I'm going to need it to weld the half pipe across the stern. The swim deck is just a few inches lower than where the rub rail needs to be.
Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel
The rub rail went on easier than I thought thanks to the good timing frogm a visit of my neighbor. We worked together pushing, prying and pulling from any angle we could find to close the gap between the boat and 1/2 pipe. And what we found is tacking the 1/2 pipe down also sucked it in a substantial amount. The biggest mistake I made was tacking with 3/64" wire. My tack got pretty big and wide after some tacks broke while fitting. I think .035 would have been less wire and hotter... But what do I know??
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