24' DYI alloy remodel

Mods and custom builds
kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#26

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, some remarks on patching flush in an old cut out.

#1. I'd sand the entire area inside and out (if you can get to the backside?) with a 100grit sanding pad or flap sander until the sanding tracks were on clean metal. If you have local pits (not the drilled holes) then gouging them and filling is a separate discussion.

#2 Then decide if the material needs beveling to weld (1/8" probably does not) and clean the inner edge with a carbide side cutting burr. ( note these are non-ferrous teeth cutters, and I'd cut a nice sharp, clean edge along the inside edge of the original opening AND the holes that were drilled. All openings would have to be widened somewhat to remove the corroded material back to clean parent metal.

#3 Depending on if you can reach the back side of these patches or not (?) I'd rig some hand sanding paper to clean a 1" inside/backside border around the patch, or sand it like the front in #1.

#4 This set of images was drawn for those who could NOT get to the back of the work area and had too work from the outside only. I'll trust you can adapt your work to these images which can still offer a method to prep and weld these patches.

Image

First, this image's text is not really exact, the two blue rectangles are halves of the BACKER portion of the patch. They will fill in behind the weld and hull patch metal. Next, if you do have access to the back of the patch work area, then A) you don't have to fit them from outside in halves & B) you can just put this single piece inside behind the patch area.

#5 Here, the text is a little better, the backup is labeled correctly and shown that 1/2 of the backer has to go in first and be tacked and pleas pay attention to teh tack dressing as it will show up why shortly.

Image

The tacks are dressed to allow the patch to sit flat on the backer, but they still need to be strong enough to keep the backer close up to the hull plate.

#6 (Kind of a sequence of images)

Image

Both halves of the backer installed, tacked and dressed. What isn't shown is the 2nd backer piece has to have a tacked on handle to be able to close up the hull patch hole, and still align and handle the piece from outside the patch location. This applies where you can't work behind this area, not where you can get to both sides. The backer is now tacked in, the tacks dressed and the seam between them can be welded if the thickness is 3/16" or more but it its only 1/8" and you don't have TIG handy, I'd leave the seam unwelded or even gapped for drainage.

#7 This image is an overview of the work method but.. the backer plate in your case only needs to be big enough to back up the four drilled holes so they can be weld filled, so your backer is hole size plus the ring that is formed by the drilled holes' outline.

Image

#8 This image shows the orange 1/8" flush filler patch piece held or tacked in place.

Image

1/8" is thin enough that a square grooved weld prep is fine, welded hot in a drag or patterned weld this material is usually thin enough in relation to the weld wattage (net heat) to fuse the backer and both sides of the parent metal so the weld fills and fuses all three sides of the material. If the material is thicker than 3/16" it is probably necessary to have the flat backer bottom of the weld groove but also the prep needs to include a bevel to both sides of the hull and patch too.

All tacks have to be carefully dressed, this is where the pointed carbide burr comes in, this is a little to fine for the meataxe tool in my experience. I'd say that the tack trimming was so critical that the entire job hinges on doing it well. The weld is in a groove but if that groove is suddenly filled as the weld moves along; the weld may freeze on both sides of a 'too large' tack. Those two reductions in heat of fusion can be leakers if the tacks are not reduced to their absolute smallest cross section AND STILL HOLD! So.... that is why I think the tack dressing is so critical to a good job.

#9 Just a reference image from the back with a glass backer to see through to the back of the hull and patch and weld groove.

Image

The weld can be put in from middle of any side to middle of any other side, but I don't recommend starting or stopping in corners, the best place to start stop and do cold lap reworks, if they should happen, is in the middle of the longer sides, not the corners.

If the patches are too far from framing so a weld will distort an entire panel area, then I'd try to find a way to get some 'cripple' or wood post behind the backer plate so there is a small lift to the backer before the weld. Then the contraction will usually negate this lift, so when the push piece/cripple/leg is removed the two forces cancel one another and the surface is flat.

I hope this helps with a method of work for patching flush? The weld can be sanded flat using the grinder and 30grit to begin taking the top 80% off. Then move down to 80-100 to flatten and finally moving the the 3M (tm) abrasive pads move from brown down to blue through maroon and the surface should be solid and look good. The 3M (tm) pads can be used to blend the entire hull and the patches won't show.

Let me know if this is not clear and I'll try to revisit the images if needed?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#27

Post by speedboats »

Can you get those blades with a negative rake? My circular saw runs a 5* negative rake triple chip carbide setup, really reduces the likelihood of it grabbing.

Did use a 5" meataxe on our grinders at one stage. 1/8" thick blade to reduce the chance of blade flex and the change of a tooth breaking off. I would ABSOLUTELY NOT let the guys operate it without the guard, my fear was they would never have a 'near miss' or 'close call', but rather a full accident where they'd be missing digits or significant parts of limbs.

Whatever you use, be sure you use it so the tool is trying to drag away from you, never ever try to push it.
kmorin
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Weld fusion

#28

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, to explain the cold edge remark we can look at the various welds you've posted. The second set of welds are patterned the first set (except one) were drag or machine welds and they hold the key to the images explaining cold laps or curl under. Water wets a surface and flows out and flattens into a thin film with very thin edges but... if you use Rainex on the glass water will bead up and have a curled or bulging edge where the droplets don't fully flatten out.

Cold welds or in many cases contaminated welds do not have enough wattage/power/heat/voltage to melt the underlying parent metal or to WET OUT to the puddle edge- so the weld 'beads up' and has bulging edges instead of flowing, hollow fusion lines. The machine welds in your first weld image post shows several locations where the 'wetting action' of the molten puddle was stopped or inadequate where there is a blank stretch of no edge fusion of the weld to parent metal. This is curl under.

The welds that were in the latter posts showing good edge fusion, clean and uniform patterns as all have edges that fuse to the parent metal in tiny flow lines that are hollow not bulging. Now.... there is one weld in the first weld post that shows some contrasts that are important. This weld is patterned but was welded in one of two conditions. A) the wire speed was too slow for the voltage (spray arc too long, wire deposition to low for the amount of power in the weld arc) or B) the voltage was too high for the wire speed chosen and the parent metal cross section.

These are related to one another, like the sides of a coin, you can A) add wire speed, shorten the arc and that would help this over hot weld to look more like your subsequent welds.. or B) turn that voltage down a bit so the arc length FOR THAT wire feed speed is less either way the result is more toward the welds you've shown in the later posts.

But let's go back to that hot, long-arc weld. The edges of it show good fusion!!! the puddle's shape and proportions can be improved but the fusion line is much better than the other two machine/drag beads you shown in that earlier post. The key to judging a MIG bead is the toe and top of weld fusion lines. The 1st drag bead shows voids/holidays/gaps/blank spots in edge fusion so it was cold or run over surface contaminants that stopped the wetting action of the arc and gas. The whipped but over hot bead shows a good fusion line, but the pattern is pointed not rounded so the voltage is too high for the wire feed speed AND your rhythm what not as well paced and the pattern had more back and forth and not as much 'c' or 'e' as the later welds. BUT the fusion edge tracks are not curled under.

hope this helps clear up my use of the term "cold edge curl under" in regard a visual inspection of the aluminum MIG bead?

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Back Chip Tool

#29

Post by kmorin »

speedboats, I don't know all the blades that Freud/Diablo makes? I use these mainly because they're 4" in size. I found they never grab because of the number of teeth and in fact they ride so much that the tool needs four or five passes to take off what a single blade does in one, but lots safer in my experience. I guess its a meataxe for the senior skiff builder- like me.

Yes, I pull this tool toward me and the cutting action is always pulling it away, so if I let go, its not heading toward me :thumbsup: I don't show the handle(s) either, I've rigged all sorts to this grinder and they help keep hands away from the blade as well as increase control, but there are times they have to go and both hands have to guide the tool by the body or back of the gear box.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#30

Post by Tfitz »

Kmorin I owe you a beer or something you let me know because your explainations are crystal clear. I get it! Thank You. I will try and do those patches exactly as you say and take some photos to see if I can pass the Kmorin xray photo vision test. Your tool is definately way safer than mine. I'm going to find and order some of those blades and put them on my meat axe. I really LIKE the way I can feather the RPM with this air tool. It seems safer when it's only going as fast as it needs to go. But yes I always work the side of the tool that pulls away from me...Always.
I'll fess up it did get away from me in my first hour of using it. And now I have to figure out how to fix it. See first photo. Second and third photo are a before and after shot of my bow and 20 min of work. I think the old girl is going to clean up pretty shiny by spring! I need to get some finer flappy disks. The ones I was using left some scratches that I could have avoided. I like the job the drum sander does with scotch Brite abrasive. Thanks for that tip. Oh...and I have a rotary file with several AL carbide bits that I use allot. That's what I've been cleaning down to "parent" material with. Hey I'm starting to catch on to this AL welding lingo "parent"material ???
Attachments
image.jpg
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kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#31

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, I'm glad the explanations are working for you, I'd say the meataxe runaway panel will need a patch like the other hole. Usually welding up a set of long grooves means some panel distortion unless some serious provisions can be made to frame the area? I think cutting out that scarfed area and replacing would be the best fix, I'd make the cutout round or oval to avoid corners and still get the piece back to original thickness.

I use the 3M belts, or a generic brand version, to do similar work and also the rotary pads on a 7" and a 4" grinder motor, they do good work in removing metal fast, then bringing to a nice finish. The corrosion areas that were cleaned show what can be done with these abrasives. One thing that can be frustrating with the belt or a even a rotary pad is to give some sort of uniform pattern to the sanding pattern left on the metal.

I sometimes use a straight edge when using the hand held belt sander, by clamping the guide to the work I can get a reasonably uniform overlapped series of lines of the brush marks. On the sides of the boat, the brushed patterns are more difficult because of the wt of the tool and the shape of the hull. I think the best I've come up with is a swept floor and a roller base with an adjustable pipe jack to hold the tool. Tri-stands/pipe jacks/tool stands that have a telescoping main upright can be put on a rolling base and adjusted to one ht. Then the belt sander can be laid on its side, cradled in the V of the top of the pipe jack and run along the sides of the boat. This only works on a shop floor where its flat enough to run the tool along the side of the boat. But it is a 'workable' solution. Because of the twist of the topsides the belt has to be rotated, especially toward the bow, so making a little cradle to hold the tool is important if you decide to buff lines of 3M ScotchBrite (tm) onto your hull sides?

I've tried hanging grinders over the side, and got a series of arc like patterns, and I've tried free hand and following tape guides and all sorts of things to buff the hull topsides evenly. Not much success to tell the truth. But the rolling stand did a nice job carrying the belt sander and keeping a 'line' (sort of a line) along the hull. The best bet so far has been to sand the sheets before they're tacked up during the build, but not an option you have rebuilding.

Welder has a thread that notes marine/boat/nautical terms down in the Helpful Info topic, if the terms are not something you're used too?

Still thinking about the cabin aft bulkhead remodel so no posts in reply there yet.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#32

Post by Tfitz »

That saw gouge is right next to the cuddy roof raise cut so it seems to me I should wait until after I get the roof welded on before cutting that patch in. That heat distortion is a tricky thing to predict and avoid. I usually get done welding and look back and say "oh $2@¥" when it comes to dealing with warpage problems. No hurry on the 2' cabin extension opinion. That phase won't begin for a few weeks from now. So yea "keep thinking" I need a smart guy to help me avoid disaster with this project. I'm definately in over my head... but what the hell?? It's only costs me tons of time and money???? No.... this is all fun for me and if I can get her fishing buy this spring, and not make her look like a "Chinese Junket", that will be all the better! :thumbsup:
Thank You for all the help Kevin!!
Attachments
First fish, and only trip out on this boat, and the second one was almost twice this big!
First fish, and only trip out on this boat, and the second one was almost twice this big!
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#33

Post by Tfitz »

Kevin, photos 1 & 2 are of the saw gouge area. It was hard to tell how small it really is in the last photo so here is some front and back photos. It seems to me I could just kinda spot weld (let it cool) between spot welds and just fill it in then grind it down? There is pretty good supports near by. But your the expert, I'll fix it your way if you think cutting it out is best.
Photo 3. I had the patch and backing plate all preped and ready to weld and realized that hole maybe useful to weld through when I install the drum winch recess box. So I will wait and install the patch later. Photo 4 is holes I need to fill and grind flush. I drilled them out, these have original backing plate used for the clete that was installed there but I can see corrosion in between the old backing plate and 1/8" deck bottom. It still seems like I could clean it as good as possible and "zap" it to fill in? What do you think? They're 5/16" holes now reamed out.
Photo 5 & 6 is an up coming job to weld in the pulpit. Any things I should watch out for welding 3/8" to 1/8? I know I need to keep my gun directed on the 3/8 and just do a pattern weld and gently wash the puddle onto the 1/8" but not sure about distortion issues or other problems. Any tips or sugestions?
Photo 7 is the underside of the bow. Shows the bottom of the pulpit cuts and patch area.
Don't let me wear you down with all these minor questions. I can figure all this stuff out my way (trial and error) but if you can just comment on a problem you may see it might save me some redo time. I sure appreciate the help. Todd
Attachments
Back side of saw gouge area
Back side of saw gouge area
Saw gouge
Saw gouge
Patch ready to weld
Patch ready to weld
Reamed hole still with some corrosion
Reamed hole still with some corrosion
Pulpit arm resting in place
Pulpit arm resting in place
Pulpit arm
Pulpit arm
Underside of bow area
Underside of bow area
kmorin
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Gouge Repair

#34

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, #1&2 seeing how small the gouged areas are compared to what I thought they were I can see the welds will be short and therefore not long and contracting of the hole plate. Also the area is small, even in 1/8" so a few MIG welds sanded smooth shouldn't be a problem. I thought they were 3"- 4" or so around! but this looks like 1" to 1-1/2" and those grooves in this small an area will not be a problem. I'd weld the deepest first, and let it cool and do the shallower lines. I the welds begin to dish the small triangle, just give a tap with a dead blow from the inside and dish the panel out, the next weld will flatten is again.

#3 Patch panel picture. I'd A) bevel deeper not wider angle just more of the two parent metal sides should be beveled OR B) just sand the size of the patch down 1/16" or so around the entire circumference, both doing the same thing that is increasing the arc's reach to the backer plate material. Now, to my eye it looks like a weld would not fuse the back very well using 0,035" wire. You could verify this on the bench, and it would be a good idea to test a few gaps/bevels/joint profiles to be sure you'll getting a good single pass weld that will fill but fuse all three pieces of metal.

#4 for the depth a 5/16" hole will be hard to fill fusing to the bottom. The backer/doubler plate's crevice corrosion cell will be a major problem as that will provide a huge volume of contaminants to 'burn out'. I don't see that happening in this photo provided. I think the weld will bubble endlessly with that intermediate layer of corrosion to feed the weld puddle. I think you'll have to open up the top of the weld more, bevel or over drill.

Then putting a SS temporary backer plate or rod end under the lower doubler, I'd MIG the first sacrificial weld just around the middle corrosion layer, not filling the weld hole. This will bubble like sponge, and would need to be cut out with carbide burr to clean the junk. Then a 2nd sacrificial weld, a quick round of the same area, and cut it out too.. Now you may be able to fill the hole? So with a 1/2" over drill or better an end mill (1/2"-5/8" rotary carbide router bit?) to cut the 1/8" out to oversize, revealing the top of the old backer so you can 'burn out' the junk (twice or more) then.... clean back to weldable material and fill the 1/8".

Still a mess, not the best but maybe workable? I'm pretty sure the initial hole as shown will just bubble and cause colorfully canine remarks about the man's mother who put the unsealed doublers under the deck?

#5&6, first I'm sure you know these two pieces could end up misaligned so putting short pipes and the two bolts through the bow section should be done before they're even tacked? Next I'd put the two pieces of 3/8" on the stove/shop heater for a while before I started so I didn't have to heat them from Fairbanks ambient temp to welding temp with tacks. Last I'd make the welds symmetrical in plan view (same as the photos' view looking down) so if a weld is added outboard to the starboard in one location that the next weld is outboard port in the same fore and aft location.

Yes the thick to thin weld can be a pain, if you're not careful about the tacks. I'd tend to tack every 2" both sides, not to hold the heavy bars but to hold the thin deck material from distorting. Remember there are already heat stresses in that deck from the various previous welds, so tacking under the deck, if possible may make it easier to weld longer welds on the deck.

If possible it may be best to leave the anchor sheave plates welds until the deck's after edge is trapped by the new cuddy cabin forward bulkhead? My reasoning is that the two long welds may tend to contract that open deck edge, and that can be avoided by having the cuddy cabin weld done? I'm not sure of the exact shapes, the winch cutout and locker (housing/box/mount) and the cuddy shapes??? so, I'm just remarking about whatever transverse material will stabilize the after edge of this small foredeck- may be a good idea to have that at least tacked in when the two long bars are welded in.

I'd also plan to do the two 45 degree sloped welds on both sides of the bar before I did any of the full long runs on the flat deck. These would use the L shape of the heavier bars to resist deflecting (bending/warping/wrinkling) the deck downward due to four hot, long, large size (due to thickness of material) welds.

(Wow! some of the original welding does seem a little lumpy in the photos under the deck!!)

#7 Under deck area shows some corrosion (white powder?) and is why I always try to encourage people acid etch inside and outside a hull after (well; before if possible) a boat is welded out. Mill scale holds water vapor and creates corrosion on perfectly fine, new plate! Here's visual proof but hardly anyone pays attention to the facts, even when they're so obviously displayed.

I'd clean the inside of the two slots for the anchor sheaves plates on both sides with a power brush if possible? The reason is these surfaces will have lots of moisture stored in them (mill scale is porous and holds water vapor) that will steam up under the welds on top and can bubble up through your bead and cause porosity. 1" or so on either side of the slots should allow a vapor free zone to avoid having contaminants flowing up under your puddle.

Hope this helps with your planning. The fore deck is the biggest area of concern due to its thickness (thinness) so it's the area where the planned welds need the most forethought in my view.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#35

Post by Tfitz »

I got side tracked with several jobs that needed finished before the cuddy roof gets welded on. I wanted a Bow ice hold and the work was easier to do now, rather than wait until the roof covers it up. But before I did that I needed to move the cabin heater core to the port side of the boat so I could make it into a heater/defroster by building a box that holds the core with a flapper to deflect the warm air up to the windshield or into the cabin. With that all done I got back to work on the cuddy roof. First thing Kmorin told me to do was make good tacks every 4-5 inches on both sides of my backing strips. I was a bit worried all that welding would make the cuddy roof distort but if it did I can't see it yet. Tommorow I will gouge out the outside of my nice tight fit cuddy roof extension seam with my MANEATER saw blade and try to make a 1/8" gap to fill and leave the back strips untouched as per Kmorin. Also I have a question about my Millermatic 252 W/ 30a spool gun. I used a 150cf bottle of argon up with 3.5 1lb spools. Is that normal or too much? I have the pressure guage set at about 35-40 psi but when I squeeze the gun trigger it drops to 20-25. I thought that was about right but the gas consumption seems excessive. What do you think?
Attachments
Bow Ice hold.  Hatch removed
Bow Ice hold. Hatch removed
Ice hold framing and heater/defroster box
Ice hold framing and heater/defroster box
Cuddy roof inside tacks
Cuddy roof inside tacks
Seam ready to be gouged out with my saw blade
Seam ready to be gouged out with my saw blade
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#36

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, talking about gas flow.

I only know it in terms of the volume of gas per unit of time, not as a pressure setting. I use the combined flow meter and pressure reducing regulator that has the vertical glass Thorpe Tube to show the rate of flow of gas out of the bottle's pressure reducing regulator to the gas tube connected to the torch's gas cup.

This vertical tube has a little ball in it that floats on the gas streaming up from the needle valve in the bottom of that tube and I open or close the valve to get the ball at 35-55 cubic feet of argon per hour (time). So I'd get about four hours welding down to maybe two (2) and a fraction hours from a "150 cf" bottle.

Incidentally, I'm not familiar with that size I'm only familiar with 125, 250 and 330 ( http://www.nexair.com/gas-cylinders.php# ) so I'd expect to get the "rate of flow in hours" divided into the volume of the pressure bottle.

If you don't have this flow meter type regulator, and are actually measuring your gas coverage by pressure only; it seems like a reasonable upgrade in equipment to me? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-Argo ... 3a992f1b42 this is the type to use, the pressure-only types are not reliable for the cost of the gas. (A note; the image on the ebay link flow reg' shows an outlet needle valve not an inlet needle valve as I describe above.)

I don't know the rate of wire being used so I didn't ignore the reference to the rolls used, I only referred to time because the time of welding is what can be most easily correlated to gas use by the flow rate over time. I you had the wire cranked and burned the 3 rolls of wire in 2 hours, then the flow seems a little excessive but if you welded for 6 hours then its too low... so I ignored the wire variable for that reason.

Hope this helps with some references to gas coverage? If you decide to stay with the pressure only regulator type... there is a portable gas flow tester that you can put on the nozzle of your gun to measure what flow rate you get with the different pressure settings. http://www.weldequip.com/gas-flow-tester.htm

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#37

Post by Tfitz »

What happened? I made a good beveled joint, used a metal carbide burr tool to remove all surface oxidation to parent metal, wiped with acetone just before welding and preheated with a propane torch. The only thing I did different was turned my gas pressure down from 40 to 30psi. (I ordered a gas flow tester as recommended by Kmorin but it hasn't arrived yet). The last photo I welded yesterday is a better, (pressure at 40). Was that the problem? Low gas flow? What is making that spatter at the weld edge? It seems to me if I was holding the gun tip too far away from weld it would cause spatter? I had voltage / wire speed at Miller recommended for 3/8" material. Kevin, That tip you gave me a few days ago about if the bead is pointed instead of round means my voltage is too high. That kind of info is very helpful to me. I can remember sayings like that. And even if I don't understand the theory yet, I can get the job done.
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image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
kmorin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#38

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, these beads look like they may have been done with too small a dia. wire? If 0.035" is used on thicker than 3/16" metal, it has to be 'pushed' or run at wattage (voltage and amps combined) that makes the wire vaporize into the arc too far from the metal, as the wire speed at its fastest won't even run high enough to keep the arc shorter.

This seems to give an over spray of droplets that are on the sides of the bead, the edges look curled under or lacking in fusion and that leads me to believe that you needed to
#1 preheat the parts after tacking up (use a temp stick or temperature crayon to measure preheat or a non contact infrared digital thermometer) or
#2 move up to 0.045" wire which will carry a higher wattage welding power so the underlying parent material is melted but the increased cross section of wire means the wire feed speed can be slower while this higher amperage/voltage is being carried over the arc.

These cold welds look like the wire was too small so it's 'native' of natural wattage could not melt the parent metal so the results are cold welds with lots of over-spray due to too long an arc.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#39

Post by Tfitz »

Man..I never would have figured that out. Thank You. But cold weld? Really? As I was welding it I could see the parent metal just melting away. I really beveled it deep on all sides so I had lots of area to fill, but I can see your logic on the wire size. I sure appreciate your comments!
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#40

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, the bottom of the weld groove you formed may have been a thinner tip or narrowed area, so.. thinner, less wattage to melt. BUT... as the groove filled the thicker material was able to remove heat from the weld area faster than the smaller diameter wire could provide arc/wattage/BTU's/Heat/power to continue to melt the heavier sections and then you turned up the heat and wire. Still couldn't get the power required but did get a long arc and over spray.

So when I say cold weld, look at the edges of the bead, they're not fully fused into the parent metal like your previous image posts. So this is likely an issue with thicker metal's higher rate of heat transfer and therefore premature chilling of the weld.

glad to help, hopefully you'll find a roll of 0.045 wire in 5086 and a bigger tip and 'burn it in' that thicker material.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#41

Post by Tfitz »

I just bought a spool of 3/64 5356 at lunch time. So I may take my saw to it tonight and try again. But my goal tonight was to try and get the roof tacked into place.
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#42

Post by Tfitz »

I got my roof and drum winch box tacked in place tonight but didn't get the pulpit bracket rewelded. I did get to grind out my old cold welds with my choice of 9 new carbide Kodiak die grinder bits. :thumbsup: I should get to try my welding with 3/64" wire tomorrow. I need to quit my day job so I can work on this boat project more than 2 hours in the eve. I better figure out how to make it pay better first though.
I was planning to use .035 wire to weld this roof on and back step a pattern weld to try and limit warpage. Do a 6" weld on alternating sides to let it cool between each 6" weld. What do you think? It's all 1/8" material. Would .030 wire be better to weld the splice joint? That's the joint where I cut a 1/8" groove and have a back plate to weld into?
Attachments
image.jpg
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#43

Post by Tfitz »

The 3/64 wire welded in better but I think I kind of blew it on the technique part. Penetration was great. I think it was too hot. I turned the volts and wire speed down some and my last weld looked better.(photo). I think I could have turned it down more. What size wire would you use to weld the 3/8" pulpit bars on to my 1/8" deck?
Attachments
image.jpg
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#44

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, the 1/8" material with backer could be to thick for the 0.035" wire, so 0.045" would be the wire to use then... you'd have to test some scraps to confirm if you can get "backer fusion" with smaller wire. But if you use 0.045" you'll have to move right along.

I think 0.030" wire may be too small to carry enough wattage/voltage/heat/weld power to fuse the two cabin sides with a backer, the key is the added mass of the backer bar chills the puddle so a single pass, drag style (I know you're leading the puddle- the term comes from steel stick welding stringer beads like this) at enough speed to make a hot pass that fuses the backer but fast enough travel to leave the weld just over flush to the groove prepared.

The cold welds on 3/8" in a few posts above, show curled under edges combined with too much over spray so the heavier cross section wire, which will take more power/wattage/heat/voltage to weld, looks like it helped as the edge in the last photo so much better fusion with the parent metal.

I get the feeling that due to visibility your weld position may have slipped a bit. You should begin with the right hand off to the right side, and the left arm under the torch fully extended to the right, and unfortunately, the neck craned down to the left to look under the gas cup.... If the gas cup is high enough off the work to see under it to the contact tip and the arc, without craning the neck down to the left...(?) that usually means you're holding the gas cup too high so you'd have low gas coverage and too long an arc. You'd get the droplet spray you show on this weld, too. The spray here is not as pronounced but... its still way too much. Compare to the previous welds above with clean edges, even edge flow lines into the parent metal and the gas track area is free of over spray.... that's what you're looking for in all welds.

Get the contact tip closer to the work, I like the tip recessed about 1/8" from the face of the gas cup but... if you crank the wire speed up in order to shorten the arc for a given voltage.. you'll have to get your travel speed up too. Here the travel speed is shown too slow as the bead top seems to have built up too much. But with fused edges flowing into the parent metal you know the heat of fusion of the weld was reached, just too much 'crown' so ; either move faster or turn down the wire a little more than you have set here.

I'd personally use the 0.045" wire to weld to the deck & bars and I'd put 2/3 of the bead on the vertical bars and 1/3 of the bead on the thinner deck after tacking every couple inches. If possible? I'd tack once or twice outside, then go inside and tack thoroughly, then come back outside to weld out.

This keeps the tacks from 'chilling' the weld as they're applied. Once I was done with one weld I'd immediately take the carbide burr to the ends so there was a place (one puddle recess) to start or tie-in the next welds. I'd weld the forward slanting part first to keep the deck from bending down from the contraction to the four long welds. I'd weld the forward anchor locker transverse seam first to help keep the deck from contracting downward form those four long welds.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#45

Post by Tfitz »

What actually happened on the weld in the last photo is as I got close to the end of the weld (left). So much parent metal was melting It looked like I was going to blow the edge out. So I stopped welding for a half second to cool and zapped two more times to fill it in. That's why it's crowned looking. I over did it. It was probably just a little two hot or I should have traveled faster after the metal heated up. That's the first time I've welded with the heavier wire. I will get a little more practice tonight on another 3/8 x 2" flat bar. I will be welding that roof down this weekend so I will try practice welding 1/8" + backer with 3/64" wire. I'm more comfortable with .035 wire but if it's better ill get over it.
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#46

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, there is a practice commonly used called run on- run off bars. These are just metal that are butted to the beginning and end of the weld so the weld can be done without starts or stops. Very common on short bars, to put a run on strip before the weld, then a run off pad after the weld. When you're done, break the RO-RO bars off, dress the ends of the weld breaks with a carbide bit and call it a day.

They also provide heat sink mass to the ends of the welds, allowing you to start (the real weld) hot, and end without any crater or 'stop' puddle. I'd say they were appropriate for MIG welds of this narrow bar stock.

TIG welds avoid this by simply having the control of the arc and filler independent of one another, so I'd personally have TIG welded all these narrow bar joints, because I'm used to TIG.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#47

Post by Tfitz »

Ok I understand your suggested steps to weld in the anchor pulpit. But first I'm going to weld in the cuddy roof and drum winch box. Do you have any suggested sequence? I have it tacked inside, all the way around at 2-3" apart. One thing I'm concerned about is the huge gap in the joint where the cuddy roof ties into the cabin at the windows. I had the angle wrong or something when I fit it and now in two spots there is a 1/2" gap, I have a 1/8" backer plate under the gap but my plan is to just fill this gap with weld? I can support this joint from inside underneath so that should add lots of strength. I did a test weld with .035 just to see how it would fill and it went in fine. I just need the fill in the weld to be more convex so it finishes out higher than the cuddy roof. I think this may be a good place for 3/64 wire? What do you think? Several welds come together at that point on the cabin wall under the windows so there is lots of metal for a heat sink. The last photo shows one side of the cuddy cabin getting a little wavy from the tacks. How do you avoid this? I see none of this on the original boat. It's not too bad now but wouldn't look very good if it gets worse. Waviness in This spot may be ok because that's about where I want to put a small window.
Outside cuddy roof extension
Outside cuddy roof extension
Attachments
Inside tacks cuddy roof extension
Inside tacks cuddy roof extension
Large Weld gap at cuddy roof and cabin windows
Large Weld gap at cuddy roof and cabin windows
.035 wire test weld at cuddy roof / cabin large gap
.035 wire test weld at cuddy roof / cabin large gap
Slightly waves in side from tacks
Slightly waves in side from tacks
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#48

Post by kmorin »

Tfitz, we're getting pretty detailed in discussion so instead of trying to give full answers that would take hours of typing, I'll try some rules of thumb to see if I can help with some of the questions.

Any weld contracts in both the side to side narrow direction AND along the length direction, so if you weld around the outside of any shape of plate it will contract that edge so the sheet/plate/shape will cup as the edge is drawn in like a purse seine's purse line.

Now, since all welds don't get added at one time and are added in pieces or chains or stitches; the contraction may not be uniform and one weld added early in the sequence therefore could contract the edge in one direction but the final welds may contract in another, meaning the edges don't all curl/shorten/contract/pull in one direction resulting in waves, or wrinkles instead of a uniform cupping shape that is smooth- if bulged a bit.

There are several 'things' to do about his distortion. First is to tack closer than 2" split the differences between the tacks and tighten up to 1" or 1-1/2" so the tacks work to limit how much metal if being pulled in the weld contraction at one time. Said another way, close tacks limit any given welds' pull to the next tack, closer tacks mean less distance of pull so less effect of contraction.

If a sheet is tacked up wavy/contorted it will weld that way or worse, so the tack line needs to be dressed to a uniform line by hammering with a dead blow or lead hammer, steel usually leaves marks that the softer hammers do not. The reason there may be waves int he lower cabin tack up line is that the seam may not have been completely fair and smooth are teh cabin cut off- so the tack up, guided by gap, is along an unfair line. Go inside and tap out he tacks that are part of dishes so the line is fair when a narrow flat bar is laid to the side just above the weld seam area. If a flat bar, laid to the side doesn't lay flat against the lower cabin newest plate, then the area needs more adjustment inboard or outboard with a hammer.

Next thing to do about wavy sides is to stitch weld in short welds with carbide cut out starts and stops. Spread the contraction along the entire weld and add the welds in a uniform pattern stretched along the seam.

Welding the deck to lower cabin sides would be best done in the same direction both sides, chaining your stitches in say three or four lifts or passes. To do this, put a marker dot next to the seam on the deck plate that you can see in the hood, layout uniform distances of say 4" apart: make a dot every four inches. Now weld the fore most and middle and aft most sets of marked welds using 0.035" wire and the whipped weld bead if the fit is not tight and a fasts narrow drag bead if it is tight. The bead in either type should not be wider than 3/32" on the outside face where both legs are about 1/8" - this is usually where newer builders have problems, narrow proportional beads. 98% of all distortion comes from not understanding how to put proportional welds on the boat. It's much easier to put wide slower beads down but they do the most contracting/distorting/waving of the finished boat.

The next pass (series of welds) is 1/2 between the first passes again if you're on the port gunwale forward, then weld aft to forward with your right hand and the next weld, in all passes, is aft the first one. By trapping the ends and middle then filling in the final pass ties to to welds and is three or four welds in that pass. The length of the welds is only 4" to keep from building up lots of heat (therefore lots of contraction) and they're spread in a pattern to continually shorten their own effects of contraction. Only issue is one side you're welding 'strong hand' and the other 'off hand' assuming your first weld is port forward in the final 4" using the right hand... then the first weld on the other side will be starboard forward and the last four inches of that side will require the weld aft to forward and that weld is 'backwards' to a right handed welder.

Where the cabin top welds back to the lower windscreen, I'd clamp a thick bar to the edge of the windscreen using lots of Visegrips, as a heat sink, as a stiffener during weld heating and contraction, and to help keep the welded-to material striaght while the heat is applied. This will reduce but not likely eliminate the contraction waves that will form on this lower window opening edge. After the weld is done, I'd take two hammers to this and (not ball peen, but wide flat faces) and peen the dips out so the edge was 'mostly straight' the glass holding extrusion will help some to straighten.

IN windscreen weld I'd use the weld you show, but I'd tack the joints every 1" underneath to reduce as much as possible the room to move the cabin top has prior to and during the welding process. If this joint is not supported from below, I'd consider a cut beam/camber frame tacked below to hold it up while it was joined.

Cabin side extension or grooved flat joint= drag weld. Cabin side to deck weld= drag if possible; whipped if too wide a gap to bridge with stringer bead. CAbin top to windscreen= whipped just to fill the gap, short 3" welds, in passes 12" apart first pass & both ends cupped out with carbide spherical burr.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, Ak
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#49

Post by Tfitz »

Whooee!! This will take me awhile to digest... Thanks Kevin
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Re: 24' DYI alloy remodel

#50

Post by Tfitz »

First thing I did is use my new gas flow tester and found out I was using almost double the gas flow as I needed. For about 30 CFH my pressure gauge was at 22psi. I was running it at 35-40 psi!! Next, tapped out the slight wavy distortion that was in sides. A few taps with a hammer and chunk of wood on the tacks and things got pretty straight. Over all I'm pretty happy with these welds. It's kind of a relief for me to know that I can do this now. I started off using .035 wire and found it to leave spatter on the weld again. So I switched to 3/64 wire and my welds got allot better looking. (Thanks Kevin). I was planning to grind flat all the drag welds but what's allot of work grinding so I think these beads are good enough to show. I still have another evening of welding so if you have any welding suggestions let me know. I don't have a name for this boat yet maybe I will call it "Welding Practice"?
Attachments
Cuddy roof to deck
Cuddy roof to deck
Left weld .035. Right weld 3/64 wire
Left weld .035. Right weld 3/64 wire
3/64 wire weld
3/64 wire weld
No distortion yet
No distortion yet
3/64 wire weld. Getting it dialed in
3/64 wire weld. Getting it dialed in
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
Cuddy roof to cabin windshield windows welds
Cuddy roof to cabin windshield windows welds
image.jpg
Corrosion around edge of window opening caused contaminants in weld but not too bad
Corrosion around edge of window opening caused contaminants in weld but not too bad
Drag bead in grooved joint
Drag bead in grooved joint
Drag weld. .035 wire. I think these welds are good enough. No grinding required. In my opinion
Drag weld. .035 wire. I think these welds are good enough. No grinding required. In my opinion
Drag bead
Drag bead
Drag bead
Drag bead
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