Anyone build a trailer?

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Chtucker
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Anyone build a trailer?

#1

Post by Chtucker »

I have been pricing aluminum I beam trailers. Locally built, for what I want is insane $$$. With the same specifications, a trailer built in Florida is 40-50% less. I have looked into shipping from Florida and it still would be cheaper.

But..... I am not going to take a whole boat build, but a trailer seems reasonable. Especially if I use a bolt together technique. I would sub out the welding if I was going to go that route. Biggest issue is where to get the I beams formed and somewhat close with some blueprints. I have only seen tandem axle trailer plans for sale.

What I want is an overbuilt, triple axle with stainless over hydro discs, triple 6k 8 lug axles, 16" rims/tires, heavy duty jack, heavy duty winch, LEDs with tinned wiring, oversized I beam.

I figure I could buy the parts - the aluminum I beam/crossmembers for about $6k Don't know what two 30' x 5" x 8" aluminum I beams would cost and to have them formed.

Any thoughts or help?
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#2

Post by Chtucker »

Seriously doesn't look that hard..R&D (Ripoff and Duplicate as mister Goat would say) a few 15-18k trailers. I have the CG and measurements from Armstrong for my axle placement.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saq82YFxckQ[/BBvideo]
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gandrfab
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#3

Post by gandrfab »

I'll recommend going with twin axles, those rear wheels take a beating on a triple axle trailer.
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#4

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker, seems like you'd be in the absolute middle aluminum supply-land there in the Redmond WA area? Ak. Copper and Brass is a major supplier, and may even have some "trailer beam" extrusions.

Just a little background for your consideration- not trying to say which way to go in your design but.... There are two different major groups of aluminum structural shapes that may be available. One is the American Standard shapes (cross sectional dimensions) the other is the Aluminum Association shapes' standards. http://www.alascop.com/pdf/al/6061_Ibeam.pdf The reason to mention this is that the cross sections are similar but not exactly the same and that does result in different beam performance standards- like loading, deflection, forming and so on.

So if you're shopping materials, let's use Ak Copper as an example, 1st you'd want to make sure when you're looking at the catalog of shapes of one or the standard; you look up the performance (different tables than dimension tables usually) for THAT cross section!

Next (2nd), I'd think that Ak Copper or any other supplier of extrusions as large and long as this would sure be able to form them or know who could!!! (?) For example Capital Industries could surely roll the stock to a 45, or whatever angle your body-to-tongue turn will requires? http://www.capitalind.com/capabilities/forming.php I'm just speculating, haven't done work with them for plural decades but they bent 20' panels for me back in the day?

Now to the beam cross section discussion. I agree copying other trailers rated to your loads is a good way to begin the design. MY point would be to consider the wider flange beam less desirable than the deeper/taller web beam because the side loading is all but totally canceled due to the cross beams. A wide flange beam, lets say 5" x 8" (where the beam is 8" tall and 5" wide) has a huge side to side load resistance due to the very large amount of metal in the beam's top and bottom flanges being almost as wide as the beam it tall.

Let's say you moved that proportion to 4" x 10" beam? (merely a verbal not engineering example) the load that beam will hold is much higher vertically but not as much side to side. However if the trailer has cross members every 2-4'(?) then what side load is really needed?

I'm addressing your idea to somewhat overbuild in these remarks about the beam proportions, not looking at load tables and working out the numbers for your boat.

Last, in my view the heavier rated twin axle design is more useful for moving the boat around on a ramp or yard due to the tighter turning radius of the dual axle of the three axle. So I'll agree with G & R Fab that is a better design choice if possible?

just my thoughts hoping you're watching the material spec.s closely and considering the beam's vertical load deflection more than just copying others' products?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#5

Post by Chtucker »

kmorin wrote:Chtucker, seems like you'd be in the absolute middle aluminum supply-land there in the Redmond WA area? Ak. Copper and Brass is a major supplier, and may even have some "trailer beam" extrusions.

Just a little background for your consideration- not trying to say which way to go in your design but.... There are two different major groups of aluminum structural shapes that may be available. One is the American Standard shapes (cross sectional dimensions) the other is the Aluminum Association shapes' standards. http://www.alascop.com/pdf/al/6061_Ibeam.pdf The reason to mention this is that the cross sections are similar but not exactly the same and that does result in different beam performance standards- like loading, deflection, forming and so on.

So if you're shopping materials, let's use Ak Copper as an example, 1st you'd want to make sure when you're looking at the catalog of shapes of one or the standard; you look up the performance (different tables than dimension tables usually) for THAT cross section!
I used this information http://www.easternmetal.com/pdfs/alumin ... usions.pdf a. Almost all of the 15k production trailers utilize 7" tall x 4.5" .38 thick, I planned on stepping up to the 8" x 5" .41 thickness

Next (2nd), I'd think that Ak Copper or any other supplier of extrusions as large and long as this would sure be able to form them or know who could!!! (?) For example Capital Industries could surely roll the stock to a 45, or whatever angle your body-to-tongue turn will requires? http://www.capitalind.com/capabilities/forming.php I'm just speculating, haven't done work with them for plural decades but they bent 20' panels for me back in the day?

Alaska C&B only stocks to 25; Capital Industries can supply and form the beam. So far I believe I will need a 30' I beam.

Now to the beam cross section discussion. I agree copying other trailers rated to your loads is a good way to begin the design. MY point would be to consider the wider flange beam less desirable than the deeper/taller web beam because the side loading is all but totally canceled due to the cross beams. A wide flange beam, lets say 5" x 8" (where the beam is 8" tall and 5" wide) has a huge side to side load resistance due to the very large amount of metal in the beam's top and bottom flanges being almost as wide as the beam it tall.

Let's say you moved that proportion to 4" x 10" beam? (merely a verbal not engineering example) the load that beam will hold is much higher vertically but not as much side to side. However if the trailer has cross members every 2-4'(?) then what side load is really needed?

I'm addressing your idea to somewhat overbuild in these remarks about the beam proportions, not looking at load tables and working out the numbers for your boat.

Last, in my view the heavier rated twin axle design is more useful for moving the boat around on a ramp or yard due to the tighter turning radius of the dual axle of the three axle. So I'll agree with G & R Fab that is a better design choice if possible?

just my thoughts hoping you're watching the material spec.s closely and considering the beam's vertical load deflection more than just copying others' products?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
I really like the idea of a tandem axle trailer. I just haven't seen a tandem 14k boat trailer and I figured there was a good reason. Possibly because the cost of the parts and pieces is considerably more common and easier to keep stock of. Not nearly as many 7k galvanized axles are sold.
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#6

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker, glad you're using beam tables that correspond to the shapes planned.

http://www.easternmarine.com/6000-7000- ... ler-Axles/ this link at least shows some 7k axles so marine brake and hubs would need to be added, but might give some path to a 15k trailer with duals?

Otherwise, if the trailer makers don't offer dual axle 15k there's probably a good reason! Like you say, parts, or specialty parts or some other condition exists to add that third axle to get the 15k using three 5k rated axles?

One thing in regard the design, and couldn't find the link on Utube, there was an all welded aluminum trailer there (I seem to recall) that was very CLEAN in regard to over all design. The beams and all the gussets were very well integrated to one another. I recall the brackets and lights, fenders and all sorts of related 'add-ons' to the main beams were very well thought out and the welding was nice too.

Just encouraging you to consider the project from the design point of view.... your boat's trailer could become a fine looking piece of work in itself. Too many trailers are just -cut, butt and weld, and not as integrated into smooth looking designed vehicles that they could be.

Looks like you're on top of the questions, I'd say the issue of welding versus bolting various components would be the next major series of design questions?

Sketches don't have to be all that refined to be worth lots of words in an exploration discussion, so break out the CAD app OR your pencil and telephone's camera and show us what ideas you're having about how the various parts will go together?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#7

Post by Chtucker »

Kevin, can you recommend a "light" CAD program for a hobbyist?
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#8

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker, I'd say that SketchUP by Trimble was as good a program as there is in this department. http://www.sketchup.com/ I have used AutoCAD since the 1990's and been an instructor and all that... and I have and use Rhino, and have used some other programs that were sort of high end performance and cost. I've not experimented that much in the smaller less feature filled CAD applications so I'm not that good a reference on that side of the market.

SketchUP has a free version that will do some light work not sure what features are in that version or disabled in that version, compared to the version I use (Pro Version) but I can make some remarks about learning CAD if you're not already involved?

First is that CAD is organizational like building a wooden box (I'll assume most of us reading have some wood box building experience?). Some people come to CAD and don't know or explore the tools. If you took the wood working tools as a whole without knowing which tool to use in what order... you get nothing- no wood box- just shavings and saw dust. Making bread is pretty easy but if you don't do it in order... well its not bread. Wood Boxes, loaves of bread and CAD drawings (not discussing design at this time) are all sequential operations.

The error most learner make is not understanding the need to follow a sequence of tool use to build/cook/construct a project.

SketchUP has very extensive tutorials online, uTube especially has lots of SK'UP tutorials at all levels of sophistication.

Sketchup also has a VAST, big, huge, incredibly big (did I mention vast?) library of drawn objects online and free. These are called components and there are thousands of them. I just went on the program and counted 113 boat trailer models; 157 trailer axle models for example. Then there are native libraries of components like AmerStandard shapes, not sure Alum Assn. shapes? but I hope you get the idea? Many items don't' have to be drawn from scratch if someone has already drawn one?

You can draw 'flat' with Sk'UP but it is a native 3D environment so making flat drawings is done by just taking ONE view of the 3D model.

IF you decide to go this way I'll help with a "trailer tutorial" and try to field any questions, as long as we can do that here where others can read and chime in to tell us what mistakes we're making! It would make a good AAB.com tutorial for anyone interested in practicing in SkUP and then apply that learning to a trailer frame drawing and plans.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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gandrfab
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#9

Post by gandrfab »

The axles are out their.
I used to build road striping equipment.
Boss would get 12K single axles for us to put under the trailers.
So the trailers loaded could make sharp turns.
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#10

Post by Chtucker »

Struggling with Sketchup.. was able to import the I beams and rotate them around, get them parallel and spaced properly.. It is something I wish I could master quicker. I will keep plugging away.

Kevin, I think you were referring ReelSongs MYCO trailer. Here are some images of their trailers:
Attachments
2008_myco_trailer_mwa32_33xhtr_3.jpg
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#11

Post by Chtucker »

Here is an interesting take on bolting vs welding cross members
McClain Trailers fields a lot of questions: - Why doesn't McClain Trailers weld their cross members onto the I-Beams? Below is a good example why McClain has chosen to bolt their cross member onto the I-Beam. Another reason bolting the cross members onto the I-Beam allows us to get the boat lower.

Aluminum trailer have to be able to flex. Welding the cross member onto the I-Beams prevents their capability to flex thus causing the I-beam to crack because of stress.

The heating of the aluminum through welding creates a lot of localized heat and also sets up internal stresses that can lead to cracks in the future.


http://mcclaintrailers.com/crossmember/

If you follow that mantra. There really isn't a lot of structural welding on a trailer. Lighting accommodations, fenders, spare tire mount? Winch stand? maybe the bunks? Most are completely bolted arrangements. I don't know what the right answer is.
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#12

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker, do you want a trailer SkUP tutorial? I'll put one up for your if that is helpful?.... start with main beams, then add some 'stuff'? I've got time if you've got the interest....but if my posts (images of the steps) are not of any use, I won't take time. Any interface will take some effort to become useful so you'll have to access your own time available.

This is where CAD, even something as simple as SkUP becomes a matter of understanding the sequential tool use(s) to attain an object. I don't want to impose on your time, and others may not find it too informative if they're not SK'UP users; but I will be happy to post if it will help you.

I'd like to help if my explanations will do that? but if I'm not in a position to understand if you can spare the time to read and follow tutorials for your trailer?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#13

Post by Chtucker »

kmorin wrote:Chtucker, do you want a trailer SkUP tutorial? I'll put one up for your if that is helpful?.... start with main beams, then add some 'stuff'? I've got time if you've got the interest....but if my posts (images of the steps) are not of any use, I won't take time. Any interface will take some effort to become useful so you'll have to access your own time available.

This is where CAD, even something as simple as SkUP becomes a matter of understanding the sequential tool use(s) to attain an object. I don't want to impose on your time, and others may not find it too informative if they're not SK'UP users; but I will be happy to post if it will help you.

I'd like to help if my explanations will do that? but if I'm not in a position to understand if you can spare the time to read and follow tutorials for your trailer?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Yes I would love the opportunity. I tried a long time ago when it was Google Sketchup, now I see it is Trimble. I don't know how this will work, but I will try to post my first go at it today, which took me an hour or two to get to.
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#14

Post by Chtucker »

Here are two JPEGs, I will email the Sketchup file, 30'x 8"x5" I beams and I believe 4"x3" cross member. I wouldn't go with straight cross members, this was just to learn Sketchup
Attachments
Trailer Sketchup Education rear view.jpg
Trailer Sketchup Education rear view.jpg (8.78 KiB) Viewed 16234 times
Trailer Sketchup Education top view.jpg
Trailer Sketchup Education top view.jpg (8.41 KiB) Viewed 16234 times
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#15

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker,
It may seem counter intuitive but to draw a trailer with rolled or formed beam you would not start with the beams !!!

The way to use Sketchup tools to get the main beams is to use the Follow ME (extrusion) tool. To use this tool you'd have to construct the centerline of the Beams' web "path"
To layout the 'path' of the beam's centerline you'd begin with a rectangle of the length and width of the CENTER-LINE of the web of the beams of the trailer.
Divide the rectangle in half; lengthwise (don't draw one side, it will be 'mirrored' later)
(to) Draw the two beams as they come together at the front of the trailer (ignore the tongue beam, just the two beams)
Make sure the one side of the centerline of the web comes to the front (narrow end) of the trailer rectangle -1/2 its flange width OFFSET to the centerline!
So, now you have a rectangle; true length is the distance from the end of the trailer to the intersection of the two beams -they're rolled to make them intersect
The width of the rectangle is the width of the CENTER-LINE of the two beams, not the outer flange width!!!!! ... !!!!!! (read that again)

The intersection of the two beams' details is not drawn but the two beams coming together must be planned and you have to know what the dimension of the two web centers is.

Next you'll need to make a line for the center of the beams once they are rolled, formed/bent- whatever process will be used.
This involves the angles they form, or the angles from the side rails or the angles they have between them? You choose but you must assign this angle now.

At the narrow end of the rectangle of the beam's centerline you'll have the forward ends of both interlines meeting the narrow end line- OFFSET from centerline. If this is confusing then get our your pencil and start sketching!!!

There are a few ways to set the V angle of the bow... one is to assign the distance between the two bent rails; next is to fix the distance 'back' that the rails/main beams bend or are formed and the 3rd is to set an angle of one rail to the centerline.

When you know the layout of the forward centerline (your pick of method) THEN you can layout the intersection centerline of the web of the main beam with the two longer sides of the original rectangle.

lets summarize:
You have a rectangle that is the centerline of the beams- NOT their outer flange edge.
The rectangle is the LOA of the beams from their intersection froward to their back ends
The rectangle BOA is the width of the two main beams' center-lines

There is an offset from centerline of the rectangle at the front- the distance of one main beam from the center- all depending on your design of the two beam's intersection.

Now... you've made some determination of the means to draw the center-lines BACK from the narrow front edge. (one of three methods shown above) So
You'll draw a line from the beam centerline offset at the forward narrow end to the point along the long side of the main beams' center lines along the long side.

That may be determined by distance or angle but the lines will intersect with #1 the narrow end of the original rectangle and the long side of the original rectangle.

Try that much and lets see what we get? No beams; just layout lines. It's not time for beams, we're just in the layout phase.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai Ak
kmorin
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#16

Post by Chtucker »

00l0l_1vKnpWsAMHo_600x450.jpg
00o0o_7W5xwSOggbg_600x450.jpg[/attachment ][attachment=2]00l0l_1vKnpWsAMHo_600x450.jpg
Too bad this is so far away.. But is a good reference for how the the tongue is done.

http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/boa/5315396000.html
Attachments
00r0r_iFSwnmYryot_600x450.jpg
00o0o_7W5xwSOggbg_600x450.jpg
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#17

Post by Chtucker »

This is the trailer that I am modeling after (well at least a sketch)
Attachments
trailer sketch.jpg
kmorin
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#18

Post by kmorin »

Chtucker, first step is: put than into SkUp as centerlines of beams. Keep the two angle points as intersecting lines then we can add the curves to those when you find out what the beam roll radius is for this size beam- from Capital Ind. or whoever will do your forming work?

Make sure the centerlines are offset at the forward end- 1/2 the flange width per side; as I showed in the email model I made where the centerline of one half the trailer only came first' next the beam extrusion: then when the beam was formed, I mirrored that 'group' to the other side and moved them to touch at the tip.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
ReelSong
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#19

Post by ReelSong »

You mean this one?
sanded cope.jpg
sanded cope.jpg
Chaps
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#20

Post by Chaps »

Holy smokes Terry!
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#21

Post by ReelSong »

Shes just a little thing huh?
Chtucker
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Re: Anyone build a trailer?

#22

Post by Chtucker »

Well here it is at 80%
Attachments
Trailer 2.jpg
trailer 1.jpg
Trailer 3.jpg
Trailer 4.jpg
trailer.jpeg
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