Does paying for foam buy offshore security?

General boating discussion
Bullshipper
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Does paying for foam buy offshore security?

#1

Post by Bullshipper »

Underdeck Foams

I like the idea of an unsinkable boat, but do not think that shooting foam underdecks will really keep the boat upright or save it and its passengers in a fire or cold water.

It is also fairly expensive, retains water/gas unless it is reopend to create drain passages.

It also prevents prevents welding repairs on the hull.

I also think that shooting it underdecks can produce unwanted internal pressures on the welds and stuctures as it expands.

So beyond sound proofing, its my opinion that foam does more harm than good.

Airtight Bulkheads
Airtight buckheads that cannot be drained or pumped out also have their own set of problems with fume build up/explosions, condensation, smell, drum sound amplification and structural integrety over time. They also eliminate the early detection of pin hole leaks if no water reports to the bilge pump. This allows the crack to grow as it works, and can prevent timely repairs. Plus they are really hard to buid and garanty over time.

Conclusion
So to me, the idea of foam filled boats is doing nothing more than providing a false sense of security, and helping to sell small boats with a lack of storage room for life raft systems that can truely save one against the cold water or fire.

So a life raft seems to me like required equipment, and those of us that have small boats better figure out a way to store them.

I own a foam filled 19' Cape Horn.
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#2

Post by Nat »

there have been alot of cases around here where boats have sunk because the bilge filled with water and the pumps were not working.

some while tied up at the dock, some while offshore

I took a tour of the Cape Horn factory and saw to process.


That was the day I knew I would not buy a boat that didn't have a foam filled bilge, and to this day I can't understand why the high dollar boats such as Regulator, Contender, Pursuit, etc don't build a foamed bilge
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#3

Post by Bullshipper »

[quote="Nat"]there have been alot of cases around here where boats have sunk because the bilge filled with water and the pumps were not working, some while tied up at the dock, some while offshore

I took a tour of the Cape Horn factory and saw the process.

That was the day I knew I would not buy a boat that didn't have a foam filled bilge, and to this day I can't understand why the high dollar boats such as Regulator, Contender, Pursuit, etc don't build a foamed bilge[/quote]



That is a good argumuent for boats that have a catastrophic hull failure below the water line while at rest or on boats that don't self bail Nat.

But small boats that do have foam are usually not slipped for long periods of time, and if I test my bile pump and its not working the boat gets pulled or repaired.

The foam makes some of us feel safe, but I believe that while the boat may survive, we will not, and the lack of a raft storage space contributes to a lot of people talking themselves out of them and not carrying them.

I am not pointing the finger as I do not have the room on the Cape Horn, nor do I carry a raft, but I would also guess that most Pacific owners do not carry them on the 19-23 footers, and that few have a designated storage area on larger boats like the 26 footer for the same reason.
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#4

Post by warthog5 »

Some thing overlooked.

When these boat's go down it is usually a hose or thruhull fitting.

Example: Livewell pump hose broken. Livewell not sealed at the top edge and the drain can't keep up.

This is all "Operator error" for not checking their systems out. You don't have to be smart about boats to own one, just a bunch of money. There in lie's the problem.

You have the option of bulk blocks cut and sealed to install if you like.
"Just 'cause it's New, doesn't mean it's worth a Damn."
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#5

Post by welder »

I can mount a canester type Life Raft in a bunch of places on my PACIFIC 23 .

Anybody that would mount one below deck or under a hatch is a idiot.

If a big fubar happened , Fire, hit an Oil rig, another boat, I wouldn't want to go below deck or hope the hatch opens to get the raft out.

As a PACIFIC OWNER with foam under the deck , I like it there , Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I knew the foam was there when I bought it , Thats why I bought it .

Now , IF the hull was dented and thats IF , there are 2 ways to fix it ,

1] cut the dent out , scrape the foam back far enough so it wont effect the weld repair and patch away.
2] don't cut the hull , just cut a plate that fits over the dent and weld away, grind to finish.

I dont think the foam injected under the deck [ with weap holes that are welded up after the foaming process ] is gonna hurt the structure , so far its worked for years .

As bobby said almost ALL sinkings at the slip or dock is due to THRU HULLS and not properly tied off and he gets that from insurance reports .

Catastrophic Hull Failure on a PLATE alloy boat , has any body heard of one shy of a torpedo .

If the thru hull on my boat leaked , it would let in about 140 gallons of water and the boat would sit about one inch lower in the water at the stern and other than my sending unit from the gas tank [ Tank is not foamed in ] all other rigging is in a tube or conduit that is not open under the deck .

Now where would I mount my canister style raft ?
I would make a bracket to mount it under my leaning post [ easy access by all and my trash can would still fit.
2nd choice , mount it on my 5' casting deck flat of vertical.

And if all this dont work for anyone I guess the rest of us will sell our boats to make you happy.
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#6

Post by JETTYWOLF »

BS'er...

Quote: "am not pointing the finger as I do not have the room on the Cape Horn, nor do I carry a raft, but I would also guess that most Pacific owners do not carry them on the 19-23 footers, and that few have a designated storage area on larger boats like the 26 footer for the same reason."

I've been paying close attention to your posts.

Do not come here and start some personal debate. And the disguised post aren't working. This isn't THT.....we haven't had any problems yet, and we won't.
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#7

Post by AlloyToy »

The term "Unsinkable" bothers me.....

Years back there was a 19'BW in the slip next to me. We had days upon days of rain. His pump failed, and because of the "type" boater he was his scuppers were clogged enough to restrict the self bailing of the boat design.

Now I show up and the gunnels are fully submerged underwater but visible......I call that "upright flotation" but yes I consider that boat sunk......stratigically we were able to remove the water and get her on her feet
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#8

Post by dave »

Welder

What are the dimensions of the canister life raft?
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#9

Post by welder »

I dont have the exact diamentions , we will have to check with, lrse.com
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#10

Post by welder »

I just went to , lrse.com and they come in all kinds of sizes 20"X28"X10" 70+lbs. then +- either side of these dimentions. For a 4/6 man raft with a lot of goodies with it, Flares , water, food and other extras.

I also read that in time off need [ on THT, by a member that had to use his ] that anyone can lift that weight when needed and don't know there doing it , left or right handed.

Basically if you want to carry one you WILL find a place for it .
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#11

Post by Bullshipper »

[quote="JETTYWOLF"]BS'er...

I've been paying close attention to your posts.

Do not come here and start some personal debate. And the disguised post aren't working. This isn't THT.....we haven't had any problems yet, and we won't.[/quote]

Dave,

Do not take this the wrong way. I don't carry a raft, think I should, but really have no place to put one on my Cape Horn.

If you think that I am starting to start something then you are wrong. I am simply pointing out what I percieve as false sense of security that we may have shared in the past with our Horns or Pacifics.

Lester has pointed out 2 places he could put a raft, and by doing so is advancing the discussion with viable alternatives. I would suggest that the opposite side of the tuna door on the outside of the seawall might be another option to keep his cooler where it is, and not restrict forward vision.

Bobby has also suggested sealed foamed blocks and to me this sounds like a very good alternative as it drains and not retain water/fuel, might be more economical, puts no expanding strain on the inner structure, and since it doesn't have to touch the sides, allows welding and cutting to make maodifications and repairs.

So if your going to take things personally in the future when I examine safety and design features, then do us both a favor and ignore my posts.

I believe that there is room for improvement on all designs and consider passenger safety high on the list of priorities.
Bullshipper
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#12

Post by Bullshipper »

[quote="welder"]I just went to , lrse.com and they come in all kinds of sizes 20"X28"X10" 70+lbs. then +- either side of these dimentions. For a 4/6 man raft with a lot of goodies with it, Flares , water, food and other extras.

I also read that in time off need [ on THT, by a member that had to use his ] that anyone can lift that weight when needed and don't know there doing it , left or right handed.

Basically if you want to carry one you WILL find a place for it .[/quote]

Thanks Lester, I didnt know about that site. Appreciate the input.
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#13

Post by welder »

Bull, not to take sides here but Dave was just worried about Bashing of a brand of boat weather it be Pacific/Blacklab or Cape Horn .

Between the 3 of us we own all 3 of them .

We just don't want to start a bash here , Carry on.
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#14

Post by Bullshipper »

[quote="welder"]Bull, not to take sides here but Dave was just worried about Bashing of a brand of boat weather it be Pacific/Blacklab or Cape Horn .

Between the 3 of us we own all 3 of them .

We just don't want to start a bash here , Carry on.[/quote]

I am not bashing, and tried to make that clear saying that MY boat is a foam filled design. I am just trying to make things safer and go one or two steps further as I do not feel that I own the perfect boat.

Its no secret that I am working on producing an alloy cat, and input coming from you folks often helps to break log jams in my thinking and the number of thoughtful responses shows that owners have also given this previous analysis too.

But, even after hearing lots of contraticting opinions, I think that a raft should be considered standard equipment, not optional, and plan to designate a best place storage space for this safety equipment.

And with Bobby's suggestion of using sealed foam blocks, I would be an idiot not to include this type of foam system in the design for additional boat and passenger protection.

Now, I still have to find the right adhesive spray foam product that will deaden sound.
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#15

Post by welder »

Bobby may have that answer too , what size cat are you going to build ?
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#16

Post by Bullshipper »

I allready have the 24' design with the 8'6" beam in a CC or forward Sport Cabin, but a couple of friends want a walk around cabin.

So we are looking at getting a 30 x 9'11" alloy cat speced out for CNC cut plans.
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#17

Post by welder »

Jeff, can you get that cut in Mexico or would you order the Plates cut then shipped ?
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#18

Post by Bullshipper »

I have to import the plate and other buyouts into Mexico. We do have the capaity to cut locally with plasma up to 8x22 feet in our shop if need be.

But I hope to cut them with a router in the states to pre kerf the edges and eliminate the heat distrotion on narrow pieces if possible.
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#19

Post by AlloyToy »

A raft is a great idea. I want one that can be thrown on the deck somewhere yet otta the way.

IMHO the hardtop is no place to put a raft. If in the "snot", and in trouble the last thing you want to be doing is climbing up onto the HT to release the raft. Factor in the possibly of the captain being injured before the raft need be deployed, now you are relying on a buddy, your wife, your kids.........to climb up to release the raft. Chances are that you never really instructed anyone on deploying the raft either.

A thought I had was an access point at the base of the anchor locker near the floor, and a sub plate/shelf inside the anchor locker that separates the two areas. This way the door could be dropped and the raft pulled out....
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#20

Post by Bullshipper »

If they are only 10 x 2 x 28 inches thick like lester says then that opens up a lot of areas to weld on a fitted lock box in the bow on an alloy boat and it may fit in my motor well on the Cape.
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Raft

#21

Post by capeannfisherman »

George (Codfisher) carries his raft on top of the hardtop. Not in the way at all and he has just about everything you can have on top.
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#22

Post by welder »

Adrian, can we get Codfisher to post a picture of his Raft and goodies ?
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photo

#23

Post by capeannfisherman »

here is a link to BLM with a picture of LAdy Diane (Georges boat)

http://www.blacklabmarine.com/ladydi.html

Is Geoge a member here yet?
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haters

#24

Post by NUKE »

There seems to be some haters leaking into the bildge .better break out the life rafts . We are headed for certain DOOM !!!!!!!! :lol:
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Re: photo

#25

Post by NUKE »

capeannfisherman wrote:here is a link to BLM with a picture of LAdy Diane (Georges boat)

http://www.blacklabmarine.com/ladydi.html

Is Geoge a member here yet?
Adrian
according to the Members List he is AKA Codfisher
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