Time and Designs

General boating discussion
kmorin
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Time and Designs

#1

Post by kmorin »

This topic is an opening to discuss the overall design of welded aluminum boats, without assuming they're all planing hulls. I'm not trying to find fault with planing boats, they're almost all I've build my adult life- but they're not all I'd like to build.

Why do we all assume our boats are planing hulls?

TIME. That's why I think we almost all focus on planing hulls.

Almost all of us live in time/value life equations that seem to dictate planing hulls. What is the most cost effective* boat? Well the slower boats are more cost effective in terms of cost per mile; but what if we add TIME? Then the cost equation shifts somewhat and no longer focuses on just cost per mile, but that ratio now has to be taken cost per mile IN TIME. (fill in; To be back to work; To make the tide; To get there so we can go to....)

*lots of ways to define this value.

Once we add time, planing hulls are about all we can discuss because they're about all we can afford to run, but what if time were not the main overriding factor?

My close friend works in the oil industry, he works 2 weeks home and 2 weeks at work so he's home for 6 months a year. During that time, the water is wet, not solid, for about 100 to 120 days and of that he gets about half the time to use his boat. So TIME in his equation is about 50-60 day's potential boating a year. Of the potential days he may get 40% of them on the water in an average year so the real number of days is a couple weeks total.

[I realize AK is not the same as living in the 'old country' so the relative use days goes up as the latitude gets smaller. ]

What this means is; my friend works to afford his boat, and spends about 20 days a year afloat and the rest of the time he's got family and other commitments that out-prioritize his boating. He get's home from a hitch and hooks up to the truck and it's several hours pull to the harbor to launch; harbors in Alaska don't require taking ones boots off to count- they all fit on the fingers and in some places on one hand.

Can he realistically spend six or eight hours at 10 knots getting to his anchorage? What if he wanted to make a real cruise, can he spend 20-30 hours running to spend one day fishing or anchored only to run back?

Planing boats cut the on-the-water travel time but their design has to give up accommodation volume to allow them to be "trailerable". So what do we end up doing? Sprint out, try to get as much time on the water as possible, then sprint back- slow on the water is lower cost, sprinting is at the highest cost.

Most people try to pack as much living accommodation in a "trailer-ably" (new word) short hull. Further, to get the most power to wt. ratio we can get- the hulls use outboards instead of inboards cranking fuel use up, accessories down, and dominate the design's arrangement.

So, what I think would be a better arrangement (here, not necessarily in the 'old country') is a 20 -22' sedan to travel back and forth a power scow. I think it would be better to have a 40-some foot x 18' wide scow with all the amenities of a lodge/cabin/home and anchor it out. Run back and forth to the harbor/ highway/airport with a sitting only sharp bottom sedan 'commuter' skiff with a big block inboard.

If we drive a 40-someodd-foot scow out to an anchorage and drop the hook for a full season, then the runabout is used to commute to the parking lot with the vehicle to get home. An all metal scow/houseboat could be 'shuttered' with sheets of aluminum with interior studs to allow the entire hull to be one solid metal shell when you left. In the back of a bight that was sheltered and had no fetch sufficient to allow any big swells it could stay on the hook for the entire season and house the entire family and guests comfortably.

If someone boarder her, she'd be sealed unless they used power tools and did serious hull damage and that is not very common in our neck of the woods.

The sedan would handle six adults seating and move at 45-50 knots in calm seas allowing decent transit time and being metal with a sit down hardtop, provide those early spring and late fall runs when the weather isn't cooperating. Taking a 'green one' over the cabin would be a signal to back off the throttle but not an problem. An inboard/IO would heat the cabin well, provide the power to 'get home' and the combination of the two vessels would only approach the costs of some of our 28-32' fully equipped outboard powered boats commonly used today?

Just a thought, I'd like to hear from others regardless of the latitude of your boating.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin
jj225
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Re: Time and Designs

#2

Post by jj225 »

How about a semi planing hull like the downeast designs? Some of the diesel models can do 20+ knots and burn like 4gph and weigh over 6k lbs to boot. If I lived on the east coast that's probably what I'd get.
Chtucker
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Re: Time and Designs

#3

Post by Chtucker »

Going up to Victoria and Vancouver this summer we witnessed just what you were talking about on a much larger and expensive scale. The 100' boathouses with the mega yachts are probably not just the residents of the local area. They are owned by people who are around the world and enjoy cruising the inside passage and the islands.

If there where places to anchor/moor cheap or free den here I think it would be doable... Just not when it costs so much to keep your boat somewhere down in here the states.
Chaps
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Re: Time and Designs

#4

Post by Chaps »

I find myself mulling these types of ideas over in my mind occasionally as well. I like this one Kmorin but it would likely only fly in Alaska as anchorage time limits anywhere you'd like to drop the hook in the lower 48 would mean having to move the scow too frequently. One thing's for sure, the big boats in the marinas around here don't go anywhere very often, been there, done that. Lots of launch ramps everywhere open up new places to go with the greater part of the trip done in a truck which usually means you're towing a planing hull that you might not really need when you get to where you are going. Not what you were thinking but a tailerable displacement boat . . . got one in your mental catalog Kevin?
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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mojomizer
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Re: Time and Designs

#5

Post by mojomizer »

Was talking to Les about displacement hulls traveling Baja to Alaska. Seems a more economical way to travel long distances.

https://www.google.com/search?q=marinet ... 80&bih=967 Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Mark
2325 WA PACIFICSKIFF
kmorin
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Re: Time and Designs

#6

Post by kmorin »

chaps, can you imagine someone who'd even discuss anchorage "time limits" the Sound of Prince William? yeah, it's probably true it would only work here. The old country is pretty settled and the crowd has to have rules.....

I do have ideas for a trailerable displacement type cruiser but... its way down the list. I'd build the power scow and runabout first by a long way. I've even been working on the scow for a couple of years. One thing that lots of people don't pay attention to, even here, is that remote land and cabin sites are so rare because of the fed/state/indigenous people's land grabs; that a power scow would be cheaper by far than a cabin site. Not only that, you could anchor in another of the PWSound's countless thousands of bays and bights each season and die never having seen a tiny fraction of the anchorages there to be seen- but happy for having tried.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin
wickedlester
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Re: Time and Designs

#7

Post by wickedlester »

similar thoughts swim in my head :beer:
kmorin
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Time and Designs; reference book

#8

Post by kmorin »

This book by an ex- Naval officer and marine designer that is considered the ultimate on long distance cruising under power.

This guy traveled the world in a 'small' boat under power, and was pretty much the first to do so, now there are four or five companies building this class of cruiser.

I wasn't discussing this model of boat, ocean crossing, but it is very interesting and appeals to many; I was just pointing out that most of our boats are sprint boats because we have to rush between the various times allotted in our lives. I was exploring the idea of having all the home amenities in a floating cabin/houseboat somewhere off the beaten track and only hurried out and back without carrying the dishes and fishing gear each way?

IF I lived on the East Coast, I think I'd try a tug and barge design where the tug nestled/nested/fit into the stern of the barge/houseboat. Then when the two vessels were fit to one another, they'd be one power vessel and could travel along the Intercoastal Waterway and drop the hook wherever there was room. When you wanted to stay a day or so, loose the tug and motor to the local harbor and go into town. When you wanted to move along lash back up and get int eh wheel house overlooking the barge cabin and head on down.

I realize this is more of a retirement or full time boating use, but the reason to consider the houseboat is the increased room compared to a fully sea going hull. Not that a 40' aluminum scow hull couldn't be fully seaworthy, the hull form has been used in Alaska, Gulf of AK included, since the 30's and 40's in the last century. But an un-powered barge/scow hull would be lots of volume to fit out at much lower cost than a displacement hull where all the fits are shaped to the hull.

Another appealing use for the Miracle Metal.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin
pjay9
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Re: Time and Designs

#9

Post by pjay9 »

This has brought back thoughts I had in the 80's along with the resposibility of family and earning a living. I actually have the first edition of Beebe's book...a very interesting and eye opening book of adventure on your own bottom and how to do it. Alas time passes and here we are today...with world issues and being older to show the wide spread of where we/I fit in life in this world.

To address the first premise...the scow and fast transport boat sounds an excellent idea for AK, but restrictions abound here in the lower 48 as has been pointed out. I grew up in VA during my high school and slightly before years and was influenced by the east coast style lobster semi hulls, the in the years here on the Puget Sound. When charter boat hunting I desired a Delta 43 or 50 a semi displacement hull...fastish, stable, great platform and room with twin diesel. Some were made inot yacht but most are certified/inspected pax vessels...built in Seattle...I know they are glass...but very good hull design and they have lasted...many are still in use along the coast and at many floating lodges in BC and AK,,,they have fleets and are proud of them.

The point being they are semi displacement. If I had enuf liquid funds to do what I think would be fun and reasonable for me today...it would be a custom built truck camper on a flat bed using technolgy employed in the ultra trek style RV's, most likely aircraft style construction (ALLOY) and use a small version International/FL/Kenworth Sport truck 4x4 with a multi speed tranny/rear end and fuel sipping 6 banger Cummins with 1000ft/lbs of torque as the tanny can be big to take it. The camper idea is so it can be removed from the truck bed. Truck would be a four door cab with airseats plus.

Then behind on an custom trailer (like the ones built in Austrailia) with a nice semi displacement boat in the 22 to 24 range with an OB or IB deisel/IO...not settled on that...boat would be a walk around with a good bit of cuddy cabin and head and small galley again employing the new tech from the trek vehicles...that is why I am still leaning toward IBD/IO naturally the boat is alloy. I am comfortable traveling at 20 to 25 knots.

Is this all achievable...with enuf money it can be done...will I? I have not given up the dream! This is a grand discussion, thx for starting it. Capt PJ

here are some links to what I refer too above:http://globalxvehicles.com/safari-extre ... portTrucks

Right now what I have is doing a fine job!
2009 Raider 185 Pro Fisherman, 2005 90Yamaha, 2012 Yamaha9.9HT, 2008 EzLoader roller, 2004 Dodge TCD dually, 2005/2015 Lance1161
Chtucker
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Re: Time and Designs

#10

Post by Chtucker »

This is the boat that I almost bought last year. I have a full survey if anyone is interested.

The seller seems to have not sold the boat. Maybe now he will straighten out the HIN number and it won't be a title/customs problem.

I do think the boat is worth his asking price, but the HIN issue was a big deal.

Howard

http://nanaimo.en.craigslist.ca/boa/3625055767.html

Full displacement aluminum boat
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