Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

General boating discussion
Chaps
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Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#1

Post by Chaps »

Russian invasion!

OK, hyped a bit but still interesting
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#2

Post by pjay9 »

Too bad we couldn't see more of the boats. Looks like they are big open skiff, wonder if they had any canvas dodgers or such? THx for sharing.
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Aluminum Boat RANT!

#3

Post by kmorin »

Chaps, not sure if you want a hijack on the thread but I'll offer one anyway not about Russians but out the indigenous peoples of Alaska in aluminum boats.

In Alaska there are lots of provisions for the indigenous peoples (IP) to have privileges that us unworthy Caucasians (WP) aren't 'granted' by the elite Judges of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Fran/CA. For example, in Alaska, not sure about other places, the IP are allowed to hunt endangered species of whales and there are some other hunting and fishing areas and species similarly available to IP's; but not WP's. (Libbie rationalized discrimination against those who provide so those who do not- can have more of what we produce. )

Now I'm not down on the IP, they've had a tough go historically, no written language, no metal working, no monetary system and lots of other No's in their history until they met the Russians for the first time. The Russians treated them, as part of the Russian belief system, as animals in most respects, not that the Russians would not 'marry' them but they were not human in the sense of equals. So from the historic times until the Russians came the Alaskan IP were essentially stone age folks, and then became just a little more than live stock to their new invaders. They had no tolerance for diseases, none for most of the table fare and spirit cheer of the invaders (small pox, measles, influenza, potatoes and vodka) which just about wiped then entire population out, but not quite.

Then in the 1860's Seward bought the area from the Csar for a pittance and there were a new set of invaders for these folks. They'd already been 'culled' to eliminate anyone with any guts, or incentive to make a go of things, (that is an historic condition pre-Russian) so when the US got here they treated the IP like they treated the Plains States IP and we all know they were not exactly well treated.

Now enter the 1960's and liberalism in the judiciary and lawyers and all that; the IP of Alaska needed to be fixed on to reservations OR something! I mean that's how it was done right? But in this case they were given big chunks of the State, in 'compensation' for the countless years of poor treatment by all the whites- if we call Russians whites as the various Courts have done. In 1973 R.Nixon signed the Ak Native Land Claims Act and the race was on. (pun intended)

Not long after that the IP of AK sued everyone in sight- the State, the Federallies and anyone else they could find.

My remarks are about the irony of aluminum boats used by IP in AK to 'hunt' whales; this rant was revived by your post of the Russian visitors coming over in pressed aluminum skiffs!

When the IP sued not to be treated like everyone else- that is to have special privileges in hunting, fishing, whaling and the like: they'd been government dependents for a couple of generations. Some of their people had assimilated and worked at jobs but 95% of the Bush/village residents were being paid to exist by you and I, and them, her, him, they; all of these folks tax payers not tax takers.

Enter the 9th Circuit Circus and their wildly social and liberal so called "just us's " and their pivotal decision that allows these 'indians' to go whale hunting.

Before I rant about that decision, and some of its implications I'll just mention what it must be like to hunt whales in the 1600's for these guys. First they didn't have metal tools so they took brush and made ribs to skin boats that their wives, mothers and daughters "chewed and stewed" into a 'tanned hide' of a seal.

Now let's stop right there; if you, or anyone IP or not, have the guts to build a boat to chase whales out of willow brush lashed together into a frame by seal gut strings, then cover it with a bunch of seal hides sewn together and THEN have the balls to stand in that seal hide canoe and throw a rock tipped spear into a whale- you can have every whale on earth and I'm not going to whine or do more than say you've got more balls than me- go for it.

Next, you know that big mammals are not all that fragile? So one little spear, into the heart of not, is really not going to 'drop' a whale like a 30.06 does a moose or deer. Not only were these old time guys (tiny little guys not one of them would go 110lb wet) spearing whales, once they hit one they rode it out! Now just spend a second or two thinking of that 'Nantucket Sleigh Ride'? That's what the white whalers called it but they were in a bit more refined craft!

Last but not least, once you got this huge animal dead enough, you had to paddle home. That's right you had to paddle the skin boat back to the women and the village site. Next you had to butcher this thing with rocks- sure there is obsidian and it could be flaked into a good edge but we're not talking steel and steel tools to make tools. This was truly aboriginal rights, and in this form, that is in the ab-original form, I wholly respect it and an not denigrating. But I notice that no truly aboriginal society stays original; when exposed to metal, plastic and gasoline engines. Its just too much damned work when compared to even the simplest products of our civilization.

Before I rant too much about level of exclusive privileges of the current IP' in AK; I'd like to make sure anyone reading understands I have no argument with anyone, anywhere, who is willing to go to sea, naked except for some skins (not oil skins by Helly Hanson) that your mrs. chewed and sewed in order to stick a rock tipped tree limb into an animal weighing 20-100 tons; THAT person has my admiration, sympathy, envy and is not part of this rant. [ I think some WA tribal guys did this a while back?? not sure on details?]

OK what did the 9th Circus decide about the 'aboriginal rights' regarding taking game and whales? Well they concocted a 'customary and traditional use' Doctrine (C&T Doctrine) that claimed the IP in AK was allowed to have these special -racial discrimination by definition so they needed an excuse- hunts and 'right's that nobody else got to have. The reason stated was "they're simply ENTITLED to keep practicing their customary and traditional uses of game as part of exercising their aboriginal rights".

Of course if you're blond with a red beard- this implies you're entitled to race screaming your war cry, into your neighbors house, slaughter him with a broad sword, and rape his women, enslave anyone who lives through your recreational 'customary and traditional' event, steal his live stock ,and get drunk on mead. That would be 'customary and traditional use' of the neighbors according to the logic of the US 9th Circus Court of Appeals.

But I cut too fine a point, clearly, for these august minds. (pun intended)

I guess its pretty obvious there are numerous illogical stages in this 'logical' (so called) reasoning. How can a right be aboriginal when the indigenous persons couldn't read or write or work metal or even produce fired clay pottery(?) - they were bloody cave men!!!! but the 9th Circus is undaunted by reason: (why) THEY are Judges! The Court created the 'rights' based on the customary and traditional use of the resources that these people hadn't used in a hundred years- but didn't obligate the IP's to resort to the stone age methods that were in use when they 'earned' these liberal judges' version of 'rights'.

NOW....
the customary and traditional method of hunting whales is with the age old 'Lund' aluminum boat, wearing the customary and traditional Patgonia Pile thermal underwear and Helly Hanson oil skins while the old time Remington shotgun is 'still used to this day' (just as it was in the early 1300's) to 'harpoon' whales. Only now instead of a rock pointed tree limb the powder is pushing the 'customary and traditional' harpoon. Once these animals are pulled along, with the anciently devised and still used Johnson outboard reciprocating engine, to the edge of the ice they are landed using a Caterpillar 966 Loader which is hooked to Continental Cable's steel wire rope; then these customarily and traditionally taken animals are dragged onto the ice.

Where upon the entire village celebrates, just like they did for thousands and thousands of years. They landed a whale and will survive. But to get to the landing site they all ride Ski-doo sleds, arrive by call of cell phone or radio and all the other ageless traditions of historic importance that gives them a 'heritage'.

But they no longer cut up and store the whale, now some small amount is frozen in a Kenmore freezer, wrapped in wax coated paper or vacuum sealed plastic envelopes and sits in the freezer besides the other products from Safeway.

All in all the 9th Circus court has damned these poor folks, without their even being aware to a hypocritical self loathing by usurping their real traditions and allowing them to indulge in privileges of civilization only possible if their entire way of stone age life was cast aside by those who would eventually create welded aluminum boats they now use to exercise the 'special' treatment by that same society. I gotta smile at this level of irrationality.

Oddly enough, the majority of these folks think we owe it to them. They seem to miss that aluminum boats in place of their 'bidarka's' of seal skin is really a loss of their heritage, not a gain.

If you got this far in the rant, feel free to further hijack Chaps' thread!

Cheers, (and tears for these poor folks)
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#4

Post by speedboats »

All in all the 9th Circus court has damned these poor folks, without their even being aware to a hypocritical self loathing by usurping their real traditions and allowing them to indulge in privileges of civilization only possible if their entire way of stone age life was cast aside by those who would eventually create welded aluminum boats they now use to exercise the 'special' treatment by that same society. I gotta smile at this level of irrationality.

Oddly enough, the majority of these folks think we owe it to them. They seem to miss that aluminum boats in place of their 'bidarka's' of seal skin is really a loss of their heritage, not a gain.
If you substitute " 'bidarka's' of seal skin" with 'hollowed out tree" it seems those liberals are everywhere, even here at the other corner of the Pacific.
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#5

Post by Chaps »

Fantastic post Kevin, even your rants are entertaining and informative . . . "9th circus court" . . . good one!
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#6

Post by goatram »

Kevin Spot on your rant. I agree 100%. Use the WP/EP Ways than they should be under the same rules and Regs as the rest of us. Use Commercial Techniques be under their reqs and quota.

A 50 Cal was used to dispatch the whale is how the Macahs killed their whale after the harpoon was thrown. The following year the second whale was harpooned and attached to bouys that the USGC cut away do to the hunt being unsanctioned. Long boat with an outboard attached. Gillnetting the rivers, Over harvesting, Undocumented sales, Harvesting fish that was not targeted(Wink Wink) (Fishing for Sockeyes and taking Kings), Catching and harvesting Chum Roe; throwing the carcasses back in the water, Selling undersized crabs and the list goes on. WA State has its hands tied by the court and do not want to fight to rectify the problems. I do wish they would take some Seals and Sealions.
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#7

Post by Gypseas »

x2
good post Kmorin we feel the same across the border (same issues)
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Re: Aluminum Boat RANT!

#8

Post by Notanimmigrant »

Mr. Moron,

Long time reader, first time poster here. If fact, I only registered to state you are a complete racist idiot. The special whale harvesting "privledge" you cite in your uneducated rant was given to the people who historically relied on the resource. Caucasians, being more recent migrants to Alaska, exploited and nearly decimated the resource through their commercial whaling exploits. Threat to the resource lead to the protection and limited harvest. When the WP came and stole Alaska from the IP to harvest and exploit its natural resources, they were driving wooden boats. So how did it come to be that these thieven migrants can now use aluminum boats and modern technology to harvest Alaska's resources for commercial use? Why have they been allowed to advance their means of resources extraction? You use the same old woe out argument as every other racist immigrant does.
I find it interesting how idiots like yourself LITTLE GIRL and complain about having to "supporting" native people through government programs. It is actually the other way around. Immigrants came to Alaska and claimed as their own, an area called Prudhoe Bay. They harvested its oil and used those proceeds to mainly benefits their own needs. They built their large cities, roads, airports, schools, and a large fund that pays out dividends. Meanwhile, the original land owners, received almost nothing for this oil. The people of Nuiqsut, the whalers who use these aluminum boats, didn't even have flush toilets in their community until the last decade. They've received something like less then .001 percent of the oil revenues from the land that was once theirs.
It's unfortunate that you somehow consider these people "privileged" all the while you are waiting for this years $2000.00 dividend check the the government. Get your yet? Should be in your bank account this week if you signed up for direct deposit.

kmorin wrote:Chaps, not sure if you want a hijack on the thread but I'll offer one anyway not about Russians but out the indigenous peoples of Alaska in aluminum boats.

In Alaska there are lots of provisions for the indigenous peoples (IP) to have privileges that us unworthy Caucasians (WP) aren't 'granted' by the elite Judges of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Fran/CA. For example, in Alaska, not sure about other places, the IP are allowed to hunt endangered species of whales and there are some other hunting and fishing areas and species similarly available to IP's; but not WP's. (Libbie rationalized discrimination against those who provide so those who do not- can have more of what we produce. )

Now I'm not down on the IP, they've had a tough go historically, no written language, no metal working, no monetary system and lots of other No's in their history until they met the Russians for the first time. The Russians treated them, as part of the Russian belief system, as animals in most respects, not that the Russians would not 'marry' them but they were not human in the sense of equals. So from the historic times until the Russians came the Alaskan IP were essentially stone age folks, and then became just a little more than live stock to their new invaders. They had no tolerance for diseases, none for most of the table fare and spirit cheer of the invaders (small pox, measles, influenza, potatoes and vodka) which just about wiped then entire population out, but not quite.

Then in the 1860's Seward bought the area from the Csar for a pittance and there were a new set of invaders for these folks. They'd already been 'culled' to eliminate anyone with any guts, or incentive to make a go of things, (that is an historic condition pre-Russian) so when the US got here they treated the IP like they treated the Plains States IP and we all know they were not exactly well treated.

Now enter the 1960's and liberalism in the judiciary and lawyers and all that; the IP of Alaska needed to be fixed on to reservations OR something! I mean that's how it was done right? But in this case they were given big chunks of the State, in 'compensation' for the countless years of poor treatment by all the whites- if we call Russians whites as the various Courts have done. In 1973 R.Nixon signed the Ak Native Land Claims Act and the race was on. (pun intended)

Not long after that the IP of AK sued everyone in sight- the State, the Federallies and anyone else they could find.

My remarks are about the irony of aluminum boats used by IP in AK to 'hunt' whales; this rant was revived by your post of the Russian visitors coming over in pressed aluminum skiffs!

When the IP sued not to be treated like everyone else- that is to have special privileges in hunting, fishing, whaling and the like: they'd been government dependents for a couple of generations. Some of their people had assimilated and worked at jobs but 95% of the Bush/village residents were being paid to exist by you and I, and them, her, him, they; all of these folks tax payers not tax takers.

Enter the 9th Circuit Circus and their wildly social and liberal so called "just us's " and their pivotal decision that allows these 'indians' to go whale hunting.

Before I rant about that decision, and some of its implications I'll just mention what it must be like to hunt whales in the 1600's for these guys. First they didn't have metal tools so they took brush and made ribs to skin boats that their wives, mothers and daughters "chewed and stewed" into a 'tanned hide' of a seal.

Now let's stop right there; if you, or anyone IP or not, have the guts to build a boat to chase whales out of willow brush lashed together into a frame by seal gut strings, then cover it with a bunch of seal hides sewn together and THEN have the balls to stand in that seal hide canoe and throw a rock tipped spear into a whale- you can have every whale on earth and I'm not going to whine or do more than say you've got more balls than me- go for it.

Next, you know that big mammals are not all that fragile? So one little spear, into the heart of not, is really not going to 'drop' a whale like a 30.06 does a moose or deer. Not only were these old time guys (tiny little guys not one of them would go 110lb wet) spearing whales, once they hit one they rode it out! Now just spend a second or two thinking of that 'Nantucket Sleigh Ride'? That's what the white whalers called it but they were in a bit more refined craft!

Last but not least, once you got this huge animal dead enough, you had to paddle home. That's right you had to paddle the skin boat back to the women and the village site. Next you had to butcher this thing with rocks- sure there is obsidian and it could be flaked into a good edge but we're not talking steel and steel tools to make tools. This was truly aboriginal rights, and in this form, that is in the ab-original form, I wholly respect it and an not denigrating. But I notice that no truly aboriginal society stays original; when exposed to metal, plastic and gasoline engines. Its just too much damned work when compared to even the simplest products of our civilization.

Before I rant too much about level of exclusive privileges of the current IP' in AK; I'd like to make sure anyone reading understands I have no argument with anyone, anywhere, who is willing to go to sea, naked except for some skins (not oil skins by Helly Hanson) that your mrs. chewed and sewed in order to stick a rock tipped tree limb into an animal weighing 20-100 tons; THAT person has my admiration, sympathy, envy and is not part of this rant. [ I think some WA tribal guys did this a while back?? not sure on details?]

OK what did the 9th Circus decide about the 'aboriginal rights' regarding taking game and whales? Well they concocted a 'customary and traditional use' Doctrine (C&T Doctrine) that claimed the IP in AK was allowed to have these special -racial discrimination by definition so they needed an excuse- hunts and 'right's that nobody else got to have. The reason stated was "they're simply ENTITLED to keep practicing their customary and traditional uses of game as part of exercising their aboriginal rights".

Of course if you're blond with a red beard- this implies you're entitled to race screaming your war cry, into your neighbors house, slaughter him with a broad sword, and rape his women, enslave anyone who lives through your recreational 'customary and traditional' event, steal his live stock ,and get drunk on mead. That would be 'customary and traditional use' of the neighbors according to the logic of the US 9th Circus Court of Appeals.

But I cut too fine a point, clearly, for these august minds. (pun intended)

I guess its pretty obvious there are numerous illogical stages in this 'logical' (so called) reasoning. How can a right be aboriginal when the indigenous persons couldn't read or write or work metal or even produce fired clay pottery(?) - they were bloody cave men!!!! but the 9th Circus is undaunted by reason: (why) THEY are Judges! The Court created the 'rights' based on the customary and traditional use of the resources that these people hadn't used in a hundred years- but didn't obligate the IP's to resort to the stone age methods that were in use when they 'earned' these liberal judges' version of 'rights'.

NOW....
the customary and traditional method of hunting whales is with the age old 'Lund' aluminum boat, wearing the customary and traditional Patgonia Pile thermal underwear and Helly Hanson oil skins while the old time Remington shotgun is 'still used to this day' (just as it was in the early 1300's) to 'harpoon' whales. Only now instead of a rock pointed tree limb the powder is pushing the 'customary and traditional' harpoon. Once these animals are pulled along, with the anciently devised and still used Johnson outboard reciprocating engine, to the edge of the ice they are landed using a Caterpillar 966 Loader which is hooked to Continental Cable's steel wire rope; then these customarily and traditionally taken animals are dragged onto the ice.

Where upon the entire village celebrates, just like they did for thousands and thousands of years. They landed a whale and will survive. But to get to the landing site they all ride Ski-doo sleds, arrive by call of cell phone or radio and all the other ageless traditions of historic importance that gives them a 'heritage'.

But they no longer cut up and store the whale, now some small amount is frozen in a Kenmore freezer, wrapped in wax coated paper or vacuum sealed plastic envelopes and sits in the freezer besides the other products from Safeway.

All in all the 9th Circus court has damned these poor folks, without their even being aware to a hypocritical self loathing by usurping their real traditions and allowing them to indulge in privileges of civilization only possible if their entire way of stone age life was cast aside by those who would eventually create welded aluminum boats they now use to exercise the 'special' treatment by that same society. I gotta smile at this level of irrationality.

Oddly enough, the majority of these folks think we owe it to them. They seem to miss that aluminum boats in place of their 'bidarka's' of seal skin is really a loss of their heritage, not a gain.

If you got this far in the rant, feel free to further hijack Chaps' thread!

Cheers, (and tears for these poor folks)
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#9

Post by kmorin »

Notanimmigrant,

Its unfortunate that you choose to insult and then fail to make any actual logical argument against the clearly laid out points in my post. (Unfortunate because if reflects poorly on yourself as a poster, reader, member) AAB.com Forum posters don't as a rule call one another names, as a site policy rule. AAB.com will not allow you to continue to post, if you're not able to "keep a civil keyboard" so to speak.

If you would post any point-by-point refutation of my objections to the very clearly racially based preferences that the indigenous peoples of Alaska receive? then we could debate them, I guess? However, since your post is more rant than substantive argument, I'm left with no actual logical points to dispute?

I asserted that "customary and traditional" uses of the Alaskan resources are legitimate claims - but I disputed if there are any valid claims
when the aboriginal claim is not pursued in the aboriginal manner on which it is based. That seems like an illogical conclusion of the Court and I gave examples.

I did agree that if you've got the manliness and hardiness to take marine mammals with skin boats, flint spears and seal bladders to float home; I'm 100% behind that. I also argued that if you, as an original Alaskan heritage man, make the claim to the animals' harvest but insist on using Lunds, Evinrudes, and Remmingtons while wearing Patagonia under your Helly Hansens; THAT is privilege and special treatment and I can't agree to it, can't stop it mind you but its not legitimate as in 'equal treatment under the law' equal.

My net point is that if any peoples claim an "aboriginal right" then that right has to (should be to remain legitimate) be prosecuted in the aboriginal form to remain 'aboriginal in origin'. IN other words; if you and your family have a claim to whales where does it come from? Otherwise, if the so called right is not observed in its original form - that's just more special interest discrimination against others.

If it comes from 1,000's of years ago, then why does it 'override others' claims?
IF this claim of a right comes from the past, then how is it still 'from the past and therefore a prior claim"; IF it is prosecuted with modern life's tools that were not available when the over riding right came to begin it validity by nature of the date of origin?

What you're doing in the rant post, it seems to me, is to confuse things not said, and you appear to have the need to call me names? Do you think that readers will have more respect for your people, if their representative (here) cannot talk in a civil and well mannered discussion with others?

I've restated my fundamental argument about the undeserved privileges' awarded by a federal judge to your people, and I've given a series of simple, (what I think are logical), fundamental points to support the basis for my disagreement with current federal policy. IF you'd like to refute those points, then we'd welcome the discussion but: if you're only interested in venting some of your personal angst, then the AAB.com Forum is not the place for your ill mannered posts.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#10

Post by welder »

Here at AAB we are about Discussion, Learning and hearing each others thoughts in a civil way.
We do NOT condone name calling, so, this is the only warning anyone is getting in this thread.

Regards,
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#11

Post by Notanimmigrant »

welder wrote:Here at AAB we are about Discussion, Learning and hearing each others thoughts in a civil way.
We do NOT condone name calling, so, this is the only warning anyone is getting in this thread.

Regards,
Site Admin. Lester/welder
Mr. Lester,

In Kevin's post he states, "How can a right be aboriginal when the indigenous persons couldn't read or write or work metal or even produce fired clay pottery(?) - they were bloody cave men!!!!"

Does that meet your definition of civil discussion free of name calling? Sounds a bit condescending to me. Bloody cave men? Would that be a compliment? Kevin, you might want to consider the tone of your argument before you begin pointing fingers and calling others out for lack of civility. Oh......did you get your check yet?

Sincerely,

Grant Notanimmi
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#12

Post by kmorin »

Grant N,
in the post I describe the people who 'earned' or qualified for the 'aboriginal right' as 'recognized by the courts'; those people lived a subsistence existence without fired pottery, metal work or written language, a long time ago. Your misreading of what was written is what seems to cause you so much offense?

What you're attempting to do is to make my historic observation (a true fact) into a claim that current people(s) are what they were 100's or 1,000's of years ago? That simply is not what is written. I use the term "couldn't even..." to show the past tense. So, the 'right' bestowed on the current people was 'earned' or qualified by those to whom it was not even a concept in their civilization while it was 'earned' !

There is no Magna Carta in the history of Alaskan indigenous people; there is however in the English heritage, upon which the entire court system is based. So, my argument is in contempt of the court and not in the historically accurate observation of the culture that you seem to think shouldn't be observed in a truthful, factual and accurate manner?

The aboriginal Alaskan, along with the aboriginal European and all other aboriginal societies were " aboriginal". Not my history, no aspersions cast but the logic remains.

It is unfortunate that you cannot seem to understand my argument. I did not say, do not mean and have not implied the current peoples, on whose behalf you seem so offended, are the same as their thousand years past ancestors. I'm saying that your civilization cannot be logically awarded a current/modern time privilege based on the state of your ancestors' primitive culture and advancement. You are again missing the point as written and continue to do so!

I'm being condescending, intentionally, of a federal judge making an illogical argument, and sorry that your sensitivity hasn't allowed you to see that point. I cannot find anything condescending to remark that my faraway ancestors were some hut dwelling (somewhere in) European 'cave man' - I'm pretty sure the entire world began this way? However, I'm not claiming the right to act like Eric the Red, just because I've (used to have) got a red beard.

I don't think you or your family should have any more right to fish, moose, or whales than my family, otherwise there is no equal treatment under the law, it's a special privilege. I don't get any special privilege with my racial heritage, just for my genetic make up and I shouldn't, but neither should you and your family get racially biased privileges from the government that takes taxes from others to award them to you. It is immoral.

Cheers,
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#13

Post by Notanimmigrant »

Kevin you stated, " I don't get any special privilege with my racial heritage, just for my genetic make up and I shouldn't, but neither should you and your family get racially biased privileges from the government that takes taxes from others to award them to you. It is immoral"

As an Alaska, you are are an intergral part of this immoral tax system you speak of. You know that Alaskans benefit from federal tax dollars more than any other state in the nation. How does that feel to benefit from all those tax dollars without paying your fair share? As you know, Alaskans pay no state income tax, no state sales tax, and in many areas no property tax. We are one of the lowest taxed populations in the US......and receive an annual dividend check from the government. Again, receiving a check from your state government, while allowing the federal tax receipts to pay our way. Have a problem with that? Doesn't that feel a little dirty to you? Alaska has a 60 BILLION dollar savings account and is letting the tax payers of other states pay our way. Did you get your check yet? They should be deposited this week.
Grant
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#14

Post by kmorin »

Grant, I think there's an adage about when you're in a hole of your own making, stop digging? The idea as I understand it is that you avoid making your problem worse by stopping the activity that isn't working out too well.

#1 Alaska, the State of Alaska not the federalies or DC, has a well head severance tax on hydrocarbons mainly oil that is moved for sale from the Arctic Tide Water oil fields to the Valdez port to be sold. So... the State of AK gets taxes from the resources extracted - but only when they are sold.

#2 This is not a federal tax, it is a state tax, and Jay Hammond, Hugh Malone, Clem Tillion, and independent, a democrat, and a republican, argued through the elected legislature a bill that reserved some of the taxes into a (State of) Alaska Permanent Fund. (***)

#3 Therefore; the State of Alaska, without any Federal involvement of any kind, created a big 'savings account' and it has so much money that it makes interest and grows, even when the price of oil, like now, is down. This was done by the foresight of these men, mentioned above, and with plenty of others in agreement.

#4 After the Permanent Fund became so successful that is had 'spare money' the people's representatives voted a law that gives out 'some percentage' of the gained interest. That is called the Alaskan Permanent Fund Dividend, and all us tax payers pay tax on that 'gain' like we do on stocks or bonds or other income.

I get a share of the dividend distribution, like you are entitled to file for as a resident, and ALL Alaskans do. There is not taxation of people , there is only taxation of the SOLD hydrocarbons- period.
Notanimmigrant wrote:while allowing the federal tax receipts to pay our way.
you are unutterably and sadly mistaken, there is no federal taxation involved in the Alaskan Permanent Fund dividend and I pay federal taxes on the few thousand dollars we got this year, just like everyone.
Notanimmigrant wrote:As you know, Alaskans pay no state income tax, no state sales tax, and in many areas no property tax.
Yes that is because we as a State are so few, and were able to make a world class deal with the major oil companies to produce the resources and they pay ALL the taxes except we do have a Borough Real and Private property tax in Kenai.
Notanimmigrant wrote:Have a problem with that?
No, I have no problem being part of a good business government that has low taxes and few people; my only possible problem is your incorrect statements as this is NOT a federal tax program!
Notanimmigrant wrote:Doesn't that feel a little dirty to you? Alaska has a 60 BILLION dollar savings account and is letting the tax payers of other states pay our way.
Sorry Grant, you're completely and totally misinformed, that is not what is happening.. The State has paid its OWN way, no Federal aid to anyone except those on Federal aide programs. There is no shame and I feel proud to be in a state where we pay our own way with our own commercial deals with major, world wide companies that provide a fine standard of living, great opportunity to work, and LOTS good wages to build lots of WELDED ALUMINUM BOATS!
Notanimmigrant wrote:Alaska has a 60 BILLION dollar savings account and is letting the tax payers of other states pay our way.
OOP's! Grant this is becoming a habit with you. That savings account called by Alaska Statute is named the Alaska Permanent Fund and no other state or the feds or ANYONE... not you, not me, nobody contributes to this fund if they don't sell oil or gas from a State Leased Well![/] Its a wellhead severance tax savings - nothing more.

Please Grant, spend just a little time to review the published history of the facts so you save yourself the embarrassment of being ill informed?

Federal taxes return to Alaska in federal[/] programs some of them are 'matched' by the State like all states, but that has nothing, in anyway, to do with the Permanent Fund Dividend payment; that money is like any return on investment- its a taxable dividend paid to the 'stock owners' as a distribution of profits of the money making venture.

It appears to me, you're confusing federal aide programs with 'others paying our way' then; you're wrong and should spend time to become informed before making statements that are not true.

*** [ FULL DISCLOSURE: some of these formative discussions happened at my father's kitchen table, he was the Kenai Precinct, Republican Chairman at the time, close personal friends of a few of these men and well past occasional acquaintance of the rest and (write-in) Mayor of Kenai at the time. I sat in the room, a teenager, and listened, passed the coffee pot and recall quite clearly what was discussed and who argued for what ideas.]

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#15

Post by Notanimmigrant »

Kevin,
ALASKAN - Per capita, No 1 recipient of federal benefits; infrastructure projects, DOT and pork projects. If we didn't have the tax payers of other states providing for us, we'd be dipping into our 60 Billion dollar savings account. Can you imagine the morality of paying for the Bridges to Nowhere when we can get others to pay for it?

I am not at all misinformed...you're just sugar coating the issue, tossing out a few select facts to mold an argument. Sounds convincing, but anyone with a computer can fact check your argument.The federal tax dollars we receive from others is what pays our way. Without federal tax dollars we'd be forced to use our own monies. Where our 60 million dollar savings account came from is not relevant. The Federal dollars we receive allow us to keep the savings account intact. High oil prices alone could not fund our level of spending. That spending was made possible with federal tax dollars. That's a hard pill for you to swallow, but true. Not having federal tax dollars equals dipping into the savings account and dipping into the savings account means the end of your dividend check. Mark my words and we'll visit the issue again 2-3 years from now. Meanwhile, that family of 4 living down the street from you will have over $8,000 to play with this year. What are you doing with yours? I'll be using mine to remove mill scale from my subsistence boat. Maybe, do a little work on the twin 300s, or get that new Leupold scope I have my eye on. Gotta fill the freezer you know.
kmorin
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#16

Post by kmorin »

Grant, it's unfortunate that you're evidently unwilling to engage in a discussion with points, and counter points - substantial dialectic discourse as I believe it can be historically verified- online?

Instead, you began with name calling and were called down, then wild assertions that were wrong and shown your errors and you've just agreed that facts were used to illustrate your errors. And now....

Instead of engaging in any substantive argument of the original or secondary, (Hey! tertiary level) arguments; now you're off on another 'snipe flight'.

Rhetoric is generally considered the emotional phrase driven method of conversing while dialectic is an argument of factual substance with the goal to not only convince but to inform, unlike rhetoric; meant only to invoke some emotions without reasoning. We seem to be using different ideas and they're likely exclusive of one another?

There's not much I can do to continue since you refuse to "stand and engage"; snipe hunting is an allegory for changing direction so often there is no discernible rationale to your posts.

I'm glad you're going to descale your metal boat, I consider that good practice for all aluminum alloy boats.

FYI: I'll use my 2015 dividend like I've always used it, I'll give to someone that needs it more than I do, and give Thanks I don't need it.

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#17

Post by jj225 »

Mr. Morin,

While I respect your knowledge on alum. boats immensely, I think you should keep your feelings regarding Native Peoples to yourself. It paints you in a far different light IMO. I've read and reread your first post. I only glanced at what was written afterwards. It seems to me that you take great umbrage with the fact that the Inuits have used modern technology to help enhance their lives. What culture hasn't taken advantage of improvements in technology (aside from the Amish)? So they don't use a wooden spear or canoe/kayak/boat to hunt. Who cares? Is their current method of harvest having an adverse impact on the targeted species? Yes, I understand you are upset (borderline postal) about the 9th Circuit Court and their ruling. Again, who cares? Native peoples have been so violated (including outright extermination of certain tribes) by the white man they deserve everything they get from the US Govt. IMO. Did it destroy their culture? No I think the white man did a pretty good job of doing that a long time ago. That goes for all Native Peoples. I guess I'm just one of those majority who thinks we owe it to them as you so stated. But hey at least I am in the majority.

Does it really matter that the Inuits don't have a written history? Please name a hunter gatherer society that does. Native American Indians didn't. Tribes that live in the Amazon today don't have written history. Certain tribes in Africa today do not have written history. Does that make them all cavemen? It's called ORAL HISTORY. In fact, some of that oral history that is passed down in the Amazon's would make any chemist/pharmacist green with envy over what is held in some of the heads of the tribal shamans/elders.

I have always thought your writings to be highly educational and intellectual. Your ability to put into words what at times is very technical, is a credit to your intelligence. Even in your "rant" as you call it, it is well expressed. However, that is were the compliments end. You came off as being at best ignorant and at worst racist. In simpler terms you presented yourself like an appendage that has nocturnal emissions. If you had been born in an earlier time you would have made a fantastic proponent of Manifest Destiny.

You can reply all you want. I'm not going to respond. I won't even read what you have to say. One and done here. It's just to bad that others don't have the will to respond to your so called rant. Of course I'll probably be banned for life from the board or have my post deleted. I don't care. I don't need to be involved with a board if nobody has the guts to post a reply. That's my rant and no apologizes forthcoming.
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#18

Post by kmorin »

jj225, thanks for leaving me the last word on your post.
jj225 wrote: It paints you in a far different light IMO. I've read and reread your first post. I only glanced at what was written afterwards.
Since you've confirmed that you've not informed by refusing to do more than read the first post... I'm glad your refrained from more by confirming you're ill informed like Grant. Your confirmation of refusing to enter the discussion informed about the facts, and the truth confirm the 'drive by ' nature of your post.
jj225 wrote:Again, who cares?
Quite obviously, you do, or you wouldn't have posted.
jj225 wrote: Even in your "rant" as you call it, it is well expressed. However, that is were the compliments end. You came off as being at best ignorant and at worst racist.
Thanks for the compliments on my writing, sorry yours contains such obvious contradictions; since you haven't read what was argued, affirmed by your first quote, then this quote (above) is just emotional rhetorical phrasing, that I cannot accept, as you don't accept my writing.
jj225 wrote:You can reply all you want. I'm not going to respond. I won't even read what you have to say. One and done here. It's just to bad that others don't have the will to respond to your so called rant. Of course I'll probably be banned for life from the board or have my post deleted. I don't care. I don't need to be involved with a board if nobody has the guts to post a reply. That's my rant and no apologizes forthcoming.
Here is the typical non-dialectic reply when the poster cannot muster facts, evidence, real history, personal one on one knowledge, this is a Politically Correct version of saying " I can't argue with your facts, but, but.... you're not being nice." (for those reading that was a paraphrase meant as an example of a rhetorical phrase when someone is confronted by dialectic that they cannot refute.)

My reply is to the readers of the AAB.com Forum, not to JJ225 who appears mired in his own emotional events surrounding historic facts, social/cultural historic facts and the timeline of history. I did not make most of the assertions of which these two posters have accused me of doing, and illustrated in their own quotes
I think the explanation my be in; (Choose All you care to credit)
A) showing an inability to read, or poor reading comprehension;
B) poor word choice on my part, bad writing on my part;
C) oversensitivity that I'm not PC and deferential to the illogical idea of aboriginal rights;
D) failure to offer and sustain logical, factually accurate, and English Common Law rights arguments;
E) attempting to engage in a form of argument that is not successful when employed against and informed, lucid and dialectically inclined opponent?

I remember what Sargent Friday, on Drag Net, used to say "Just the Facts, Ma'am."

I stick to the facts with metal, physics, chemistry, and history and I'm not
jj225 wrote:You came off as being at best ignorant and at worst racist.
If I'm ignorant, you and Grant and the entire Forum are more the welcome to help me learn the facts, but I've not had one single one refuted so far, what makes you think the word ignorant applies to me - rather than thee?

From the dictionary: "racist: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race : the belief that some races of people are better than others"
You JJ225, and Grant are the racist(s): you're assigning that someone with Inuit heritage/genetics should be treated differently than me, and the rest of Alaskan! Read your own posts! I'm asking for equality, you're demanding a justification of special treatment ; basically you're saying Inuit/Athabaskan/Dena'iena/Eskimo are "better than others". Sorry to explain this to you both in public.

Your own argument is what is racist, not mine. Mine is based on equal treatment for everyone, and you're attempting to equate what happened 100's of years ago with some quasi-moral argument that I need to consider Inuits "better than others". (that is; agree with your racists assertions!) I was not alive 100's of years ago, none of my family was in Alaska, and I'm not responsible for the Russians like Baranoff, any more than I'm responsible for the countless other aboriginal vs developed society clashes with which history is littered.

Either we have an equal treatment under the law, or we don't. And if we don't then that is an immoral state of affairs, as the originating documents call for that very same, exact principle in the entire country. ( "By these Truths... " ) Your politically correct ideas are your own but they inarguable, indefensible, and an anathema to morality in any logical dialectic discourse, so you've confined yourself to rhetoric and then refused to stand by your own assertions! Sorry for your illogical and immoral point of view and what its done to degrade the original premise of our USofA.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Russians invade Alaska in fleet of aluminum boats!

#19

Post by kmorin »

To the Forum and anyone who wants to send email:

If you disagree with me and from my email more than one or two readers do; please quote the exact words you disagree with. IF you will do this simple act-( we can all) I can (might) understand the exact nature of your objection? At this time I've received a few emails that I've totally ignored because they were similar to the posts above.

Above, I attempted, I thought, to state exactly what and why I was objecting too and then to give what I thought (and still do) were a series of reasoned positions for my objections to the ideas of special treatment by the so-called 'rule of law' government. If you didn't get that from my posts, first and foremost highlight the problem text, and send that as a "quote" otherwise your email will sound like the posts above- senseless.

The emails sent to my personal email (I'm fine with that: k.morin@kmmail.net ) need to at least state what it is that I said (word for word using quotes and a reference to the post#) so I can see what is being 'argued'. At this time the profane, name calling rants are just trashed since they're more of the same irrational accusations as the two posters above attempted.

There could be differing points of view on this subject, but unless someone is willing to #1 state what words I wrote are in error, & #2 show in logically stated fashion how they are in error? then #3 there is no logical conclusion since 'assignments' of error are just your opinion versus mine, so I'll stick with mine and you stick with yours- even if you don't bother to actually define any reasoning?

If I say the floor is up and the ceiling is down, most everyone is willing to say "Not true , just because you say so." So if you want to email me -fine- but as stated above, and in the original rebuttals: if you don't present logical and factual arguments then don't bother to try to argue- you're wrong before you start.

Just an update if anyone is still reading this thread?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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