Small cuddy?

[TimButterfield]

Lots of interesting things posted. Thanks for all the info. We've made a decision about Wooldridge, not at this time. It's what jj said earlier, too long to wait. If we already had a boat to use, the wait wouldn't be as painful. But, we don't. An October 2015 delivery, just before winter when it gets dark sooner, would have the boat not seeing regular usage until spring of 2016. I don't think I have the patience for that. So, unless we can find it used, we need to get another brand.

I did discover that an actual cuddy may not be required. Some of the small cabins may suffice. I saw this at a local Hewes dealer today. I had looked at them online before, but not in person, so never noticed this. The small cabin on something like the 220 Ocean Pro has a pair of 42" benches that convert to a cross-ways berth. A porti-potti can be stored under one of the benches. A curtain goes around it for privacy. The hard bulkhead provides the electronics security that a cuddy with a fish curtain would not provide. So, that another option for us. A smaller boat like this also has some advantages, even if we still have to slip it. A lower cost of entry lets us see if we even like doing this before spending even more on a bigger boat. Being smaller, economy is better. I once heard a saying that might apply here. Buy the smallest boat you can get away with because you will use it more. So, the requirements are just berth (V or not), porti-potti, and hard bulkhead. That may be a bit easier to find.

[Chtucker]

Lots of interesting things posted. Thanks for all the info. We've made a decision about Wooldridge, not at this time. It's what jj said earlier, too long to wait. If we already had a boat to use, the wait wouldn't be as painful. But, we don't. An October 2015 delivery, just before winter when it gets dark sooner, would have the boat not seeing regular usage until spring of 2016. I don't think I have the patience for that. So, unless we can find it used, we need to get another brand.

I did discover that an actual cuddy may not be required. Some of the small cabins may suffice. I saw this at a local Hewes dealer today. I had looked at them online before, but not in person, so never noticed this. The small cabin on something like the 220 Ocean Pro has a pair of 42" benches that convert to a cross-ways berth. A porti-potti can be stored under one of the benches. A curtain goes around it for privacy. The hard bulkhead provides the electronics security that a cuddy with a fish curtain would not provide. So, that another option for us. A smaller boat like this also has some advantages, even if we still have to slip it. A lower cost of entry lets us see if we even like doing this before spending even more on a bigger boat. Being smaller, economy is better. I once heard a saying that might apply here. Buy the smallest boat you can get away with because you will use it more. So, the requirements are just berth (V or not), porti-potti, and hard bulkhead. That may be a bit easier to find.

All great thoughts! If your looking at Hewescarft you should also look at Thunderjet and Alumaweld. I think they are all in the same league.

Good luck with your search. If you ever want to check out our Armstrong we are down in Kirkland.

[Chtucker]

Here are used boats. Think you should look at.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/4635823480.html

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2005/Ar ... __4f2K9KSM

The lifetimer looks like just thing you want

[TimButterfield]

Thanks for those two links. I took a look at them. Both were interesting, but both had things I don't prefer. I guess I should update my preference list: berth, potti, hard bulkhead, outboards, diesel heat (can be added)

Edit: forgot hard bulkhead

[jj225]

Here are used boats. Think you should look at.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/4635823480.html

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2005/Ar ... __4f2K9KSM

The lifetimer looks like just thing you want

Can't imagine the 4.3 pushing that Armstrong. Same engine as my 19' Seahawk. I bet that hull is pushing 4k lbs. My old glass boat was around that and had a 5.7 and it
was no speed burner. 2.5 gph at 20 knots and that was brand new.

IMO don't think the hull thickness matters at resale. It's how the boat is built and maintained along with the sellers idea of what it's worth vs. what it's really worth.

[paddler]

Lots of interesting things posted. Thanks for all the info. We've made a decision about Wooldridge, not at this time. It's what jj said earlier, too long to wait. If we already had a boat to use, the wait wouldn't be as painful. But, we don't. An October 2015 delivery, just before winter when it gets dark sooner, would have the boat not seeing regular usage until spring of 2016. I don't think I have the patience for that. So, unless we can find it used, we need to get another brand.

I did discover that an actual cuddy may not be required. Some of the small cabins may suffice. I saw this at a local Hewes dealer today. I had looked at them online before, but not in person, so never noticed this. The small cabin on something like the 220 Ocean Pro has a pair of 42" benches that convert to a cross-ways berth. A porti-potti can be stored under one of the benches. A curtain goes around it for privacy. The hard bulkhead provides the electronics security that a cuddy with a fish curtain would not provide. So, that another option for us. A smaller boat like this also has some advantages, even if we still have to slip it. A lower cost of entry lets us see if we even like doing this before spending even more on a bigger boat. Being smaller, economy is better. I once heard a saying that might apply here. Buy the smallest boat you can get away with because you will use it more. So, the requirements are just berth (V or not), porti-potti, and hard bulkhead. That may be a bit easier to find.

Tim, it sounds like you're talking about the Hewes Ocean Pro Hard Top. That model is listed at 3000# dry, no batteries, downriggers, fuel, engine, trailer, etc. In other words, figure well over 5000# towing weight. It looks like your Jeep has the 2.4L I4, so that's probably a no go. Beware of manufacture's dry weights. My 20' Searunner is listed at something like 1575#, my Mercury 115HP EFI at 400#, my EZ Loader trailer at 700#. On a truck scale it weighs 3700#. If you only plan to use your boat in one place, a slip makes sense. But a smaller, towable boat provides more flexibility.

As you know, all boats are a compromise. If you decide to slip your boat, that opens up a lot of possibilities. There are tons of larger boats out there selling for less than what you'll pay for a new, small and modest alloy boat. Maintanence, operational costs and repairs will be higher, so it's a case by case decision. Good luck in your search.

[TimButterfield]

Paddler, You're right. I was looking at the Hewes 220 OP HT and also the Alaskan 240 MLC, with a peek at the 220 SeaRunner. Our Jeep has the V6 and tow package for a 4,500 pound tow rating. I would be skipping the trailer and slipping the OP and AK. A 220 SR might be towable for me, though with less big water ability/safety margin. The flexibility of towing is very tempting, but, then again, our RV is parked with a view north to Cap Sante marina. If slipping either there or inside at Twin Bridges, we could be on the boat in about ten minutes. That's quite tempting also. I need to figure out which is more important to us and how much we might (since we don't really know yet) use different features of the boat (fish vs cruise/run around, etc.).

[paddler]

My Expedition is rated at 9000#, but I don't want to get anywhere near that. You're right about buying the smallest boat that meets your needs if you trailer. That's why I insist on maximum space and weight effifiency. I would never commission a small boat with .250"/.190" plate, as using lighter plate will allow you to go larger or lighter, maybe both. The problem is cost, of course. If you can find a good, used boat, you get a lot more for your money. Being particular is expensive. However, if buying new, get exactly what you want.

[TimButterfield]

We're in agreement, Paddler. I certainly would not want to tow even your boat any real distance with my Jeep. At most, towing that weight would only be across town or to the dealer. If I needed to tow any real distance, it would be with a much smaller boat. To go larger would put too much strain on the engine and transmission even if the vehicle is rated for the weight; hills matter. I think I should give up on towability in order to get something with a hard enclosed cabin. So, just something to put in the slip.

Even when keeping it in a slip all of the time and never putting it on a trailer, smaller size still factors in. Consider fuel burn for an outing once every couple of weeks vs three or four times per week. My being in WA, but working a central time zone schedule, allows for quite a bit of the latter as I get off work two hours earlier in the afternoon.

My wife and I went through an exercise of trying to guess at what our usages may be, trying to factor in things like just running around, fishing, crabbing, possible guests, overnights, cooking, and whether the water we're in may be offshore or mostly north Puget sound near home. My need to be working Monday mornings affects this quite a bit. Given the distance form Anacortes to offshore water, going both ways entirely by boat, that is not likely to happen very often. The strait may get nasty, but I'm not sure if I need an offshore capable boat for that or if I can just keep an eye on the weather. Not needing offshore may let us reduce the hull size from something like the Hewes Alaskan down to the Ocean Pro or even the Sea Runner. There's a big price drop between the AK and the OP (20k?) and another smaller drop to the SR (10k?). With a decent electronics package including radar, something sized like the SR or OP may be sufficient. With smaller straits like Rosario and Haro, the OP may be a bit better than the SR, just in case.

Given the size factors, I checked some fuel burn numbers. Here are some fuel comparison numbers (at similar speeds) for some of the boats we're considering:

• Hewes 220 OceanPro, Honda 225hp: 3500 rpm, 22.6 mph, 5.6 gph, 4.0 mpg
• Hewes 220 SeaRunner, Honda 150hp: 3500 rpm, 21.3 mph, 4.1 gph, 5.2 mpg
• C-Dory 22 Cruiser, Honda 75hp: 4,000 rpm, 20.3 mph, 3.85 gph, 5.27 mpg

I thought the fuel burn for these smaller boats would be substantially better than for a larger boat. Then I saw this:

• Wooldridge 26 SS OS, Yamaha 300hp: 3000 rpm, 24.7 mph, 6.4 gph, 3.9 mpg

That's only slightly off from their smaller boat.

• 20 S OS, Yamaha 150hp: 3500 rpm, 21.9 mph, 5.2 gph, 4.2 mpg

I know hull shape factors in, but I don't really understand these differences with those above. The cost to entry is higher for these though, in money and in time to build.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. The process is helping me narrow our selection. I'm keeping an eye on used also, in case something good pops up before I succumb and buy new. One of my problems there is my general lack of knowledge on brands, quality, and condition causing me to exclude boats which might have been a good fit. There's time yet, though, and no rush. I have a little bit of patience, just not a lot.

[kmorin]

Tim, I'd like to make some comments too, while they'll likely add to the soup of many voices they are from the point of view of my builds and may help influence one or another themes in your search for your boat.

Scantlings are often done in two schools of thought. First is the "tougher than train wheels" school ( of which I've been accused more than once) where thick is good, (therefore) thicker is gooder and so forth. The second school is the more or less engineered school of thought. This is where the necessary scantling dimensions plus a reasonable safety factor is considered 'right'.

AbramA1M1tanks use the first school of thought as their design philosophy; you know 140,000 lb. and composite armor or 24" equivalent of steel plate..... while airplanes, like Boeing's airliners, use the second school of thought and design guidelines.

All stock design boat builders, regardless of their designs, rely on making these decisions for you. Sort of like Detroit; you walk on the car lot and have a set of choices but they're not really going to combine or redo any of the product for less than half a life time's earnings!

If your circumstances requires specially engineered scantlings for fuel economy, performance with a given engine or any other 'special' reason; then the stock builder's designs cannot economically be adapted beyond their 'given' design envelope. They all allow some modification but need to limit that to the variables already in their design package. You've (may have) confined yourself to the one-off builder and the corresponding premium of buying a one off design package and having it built.

Fuel economy.
It is not given credit as much as it deserves but.... chine width to displacement can make a big difference in fuel usage. A 6' bottom versus a 7' bottom versus an 8' bottom can have similar (within 25% ) displacements and still show 25-40% difference in fuel use due to the waterplane size. So unless you create a table, list each of the marine ratio factors for each design, and include all the factors needed to make fuel use comparisons- then you cannot conclude any useful information from 'model and LOA' versus this model at another LOA.

Last but not least: Opportunity anyone?
Small one off shops can, not will but can be a savings for the new built boat where special design considerations make the boat different from stock builders' boats.

Lets consider a young man, already demonstrating good quality work, who is interested in moving up, say he's building a smaller size, open, tiller handled outboard skiff? Now you approach and ask him to step up his LOA and work level? I was there, and went from 20' net skiffs to 40 power boats, and did the first few for 'free'. (I may have made wages but they were not as high a wage as I made on skiffs!)

So there may be talented, young, aggressive builders (I live in AK so I'm not familiar with Puget Sound's builders' market) who's trade level is good and coming upward. You may well find that someone in that category could take on your skiff ideas and design in order to prove their skills and to get his toe hold in the market?

Lots of builders, and I've done this myself, will just add 50% to the needed scantlings and "forget about it". You're buying the metal, I'm specifying it, and if its thicker, I'll never have to work on your boat again. Once out the door, well have a nice life.

I'm not saying that with disrespect but if I've got a business to run, what's a few bucks in metal (you're paying for it) when I am sure I won't have to patch the bottom when you cinch the boat to a roller trailer with 30,000 lb line truck 4" wide nylon straps and bend the bottom on rollers instead of bunks at 70 mph while that material is under compression loads greater than the design limit on water by 10X? (More aluminum boats are damaged by trailering poorly than all the water born problems by a factor of 10,000x.)

Just some ideas to add to your contemplation of the best boat for your use.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

[TimButterfield]

Thanks, Kevin. That was a lot of good info to digest. After a few reads through it, I've scratched the surface. It seems my boat will be safer not being regularly trailered. That's good to know. I'm not obsessed over fuel usage, but do find the variations interesting and apply just a little weight to it in my considerations. As for thicker metal, I don't object to it and am no longer worried about trailer weight. Now, it's (sort of) more about overall price and the time until I can get it in the water. Do any production boats have the thicker bottoms? For a custom boat, how difficult is that for a bank to finance? I've got cash for a decent down payment, but not for the whole thing.

[paddler]

Thanks, Kevin, your input is, as always, very informational. When I visited North River last summer and met their the guy in charge of the commercial side, I asked him to build a splashwell boat. He said it couldn't be done without reengineering the boat at the one-off cost of $7000. In other words, "We're busy, go away and leave us alone."

I think what you say is true about most builders, that is, using heavier than necessary material is insurance against warranty issues, weight and fuel efficiency is the owner's problem. Also, I think few owners recognize the potential problems with roller bunks. The PSI on the small points of contact is very, very high. When I ordered my boat, I insisted the bunks extend to fully support the transom, another oft overlooked detail. When I showed up to pick it up, I was pleased to see not two but four bunks. Nice.

I'd love to find a young, up and coming guy with good skills to build a boat. I've even been looking into the pulse MIG welders, as I have good manual skills and could maybe do it myself. Paying an established firm that does this kind of work will be very expensive. I'm waiting for more information in this regard. It seems like a heavily built aluminum boat relinquishes the weight advantage over 'glass and tends to be much more expensive. Choosing aluminum to me means only maximizing the advantages of the material justifies the increased cost.

Tim, if you moor a boat, I think you can pretty much forget about fishing the open ocean. Unless you have lots of money and time, going from Anacortes to Tatoosh Island is over 100 miles. Think 40 gallons of fuel each way, plus traversing the Straight, which can be changeable. I think you'd be better off with a smaller, lighter boat that is more than sufficient for crabbing locally and even chasing tuna on good days. There are definitely things I don't like about my Hewes, but it has served me well.

[TimButterfield]

Paddler, If I were to do ocean fishing, it would be a special trip over a long weekend to give time to get out, fish a couple of days, and come back. That might be once, maybe twice a year, if I go that route.

That time constraint requires additional capability if the weather gets nasty. Or, I could also take the work laptop with me and work from a harbor further out on the Olympic peninsula if I cannot make it back by Monday morning. I'm 100% telecommute, though I prefer Anacortes as a home base for the RV. That introduces a twist. Our 43' RV can pull 10k, though it would require the wife to drive the Jeep if we wanted it at the other end. Like taking the boat out that far, taking the RV that way is not likely to happen often either. I certainly would not want to regularly launch a boat with the RV.

When you mentioned smaller, lighter, are you referring to boats like the OceanPro and SeaRunner or to even lighter than that? My current leanings are to the first group in my fuel comparison above. The OceanPro is currently at the top. The SeaRunner would save about $10k. The C-Dory would enhance cruising at the expense of some fishing ability and a need to handle the chop at a slower speed. If I go used, it might be whatever shows up that catches my fancy.

[paddler]

By smaller, I mean Jeep towable. As in <4000#. Such a boat would give you the flexibility to fish out of any marina in the Sound, SJF, and the coast. It wouldn't be a cruiser. You basically need to refine the boat's job description; that will tell you which types of boats are most applicable. Then shop maker and price. Lots of decisions. It probably won't be your last boat.

[TimButterfield]

Thanks for clarifying, Paddler. For such a boat, I would still need a porti-potti on board and a hard bulkhead. I cannot use a fish curtain enclosure due to lack of security and do not want to have to connect/disconnect the exposed electronics several times a week when leaving it in a slip. The boat you have may be a fit or the 220 SeaRunner at 150 pounds more than the 200. One worry I have with towing something like this is the width. My Jeep is not nearly as wide as a full size pickup and even those sometimes need to add tow mirrors. I might be able to strap on something like the McKesh portable mirrors for towing.

[paddler]

You might rethink the porta potty and bulkhead. I have a pee bucket. Guess what? Nobody is close enough, nobody can see over the gunnels, nobody looks, nobody cares. My Lowrance LCX 111c HD disconnects in a minute or so. I store my boat inside, so leave it on anyway. You will use a small boat more. If this is your first boat, go small now and use it to further define the next boat's job description.

[TimButterfield]

The porti-potti with some privacy curtain is a requirement for my wife. A bucket was a definite no. Health issues also factor into variable bladder capacity. Guests would mostly be another couple and not just 'us guys.' Thus, some privacy is required, though we can step out of the cabin so one person can use the potti in the cabin. As for proximity to others, some of the crabbing we have done with others has been just outside of the marina with other boats passing nearby. It's certainly within binocular range of multiple shores. Many areas in the islands are this way.

We have no internal storage area for a boat. We're in an RV park and the boat cannot be parked next to the RV without paying near full price for that RV slot. It will be in either a remote parking area (not necessarily gated) or in a slip at the marina, one without locking gates. Since anyone can walk up to the boat at the marina, anything loose and of value could disappear, electronics, rods, crab traps, etc. I was also planning on adding diesel heat to use it some during winter and the enclosure would help to contain that. Those are the reasons for those requirements. If I were to remove any of those, I might as well just get an open skiff for summer crabbing/fishing relatively close to a ramp. But, I would much rather have the ability to spend a couple of days and an overnight on the boat. if I were to choose between a small towable boat without these features or a larger boat with the features that required a slip, I would easily choose the latter as it would be used much more often and much more of the year, especially during the colder months.

[TimButterfield]

I should add a few clarifiers. My wife is my best friend and we do most things together. If she were not comfortable on the boat, we probably would not go. To encourage her to go more often, I would like it to be as comfortable as practical for her. Sizing has a factor in regards to climate. A more open and I heated boat, something small enough for my Jeep to tow, would be too cold for her to use for late fall through early spring. A slightly larger boat with an enclosed and heated cabin would greatly extend the boating season. While a smaller boat increases flexibility of boating location, a larger boat in a slip could be used for more of the year.

I came across the boat in the attached image today at the Cap Sante fuel dock. It seems to combine a cuddy with a cabin, but without being a pilot house. Is such a boat still being produced by anyone?

[jj225]

What ever boat you go with I strongly recommend you get one with a self bailing deck. You don't want saltwater getting into your bilge if it can be helped. Especially with a boat that has foam in it. As Paddler has an aversion to offshore brackets I have one for foam below decks in a saltwater boat. It can and will create problems if not addressed, especially if you live in an area where water can freeze and crack the foam (over and over again). Just google crevice corrosion and foam. Plus it's just makes sense to have a boat that is self bailing if you're out on the ocean. Personally, I wouldn't own a boat that wasn't if I was going to fish on the big blue.

Best of luck in your search.

[TimButterfield]

Thanks, jj. I would like a self-bailing deck, though it's tough to find in smaller sizes. The 22' Hewes don't have them. The 24 Pacific Explorer does, though that also jumps up to a pilothouse instead of a simple cabin. That has the corresponding price jump, of course. I learned on Saturday of the Duckworth Silverwing, a 22 they apply a BailSafe (tm) name to. It was described to me as self-bailing, though applying a trademarked name instead of just saying that is a little worrisome, kind of like they are hiding something. Duckworth is another boat with a sizable lead time, 4-6 months, though an order soon would at least let me use it by spring of 2015. I don't mind the brackets, especially if they extend the hull. I do like the extra cockpit space they provide. Foam and corrosion potential is a worry for me also. This worry does help the non-alloy side of the comparison a little, though I haven't given up on alloy yet; too many good points in its favor.

[jj225]

I think an Arima 21' would be light enough to tow but not sure. You can get one with a hard top with Alaskan Bulkhead and cuddy. People that own them love em. Thought about one but in the end it wasn't right for me and how I'd be fishing it. Also no self bailing deck. You have to go up to the 22' for that. How about an older Sea Sport? Especially if you are going to slip it. Looked at them pretty hard a few years ago. Gas guzzler though. Most heavy glass boat are though.

[TimButterfield]

Thanks, jj. The Sea Ranger 21 HT overview page states boat/engine/trailer approximate weight at 4,000 pounds. With fuel and gear, I would be at max capacity. One thing that seems odd is standard fuel is only 48 gallons, while a Hewes 220 OceanPro is 85 gallons.

I have decided not to worry too much about weight for this boat. We have a lot of exploring, fishing, and crabbing to do around the San Juans before I need the flexibility of towing. By the time that happens, I will be able to get a used truck capable of towing it, one sized for towing the boat I would have then. Given that, if I could get comfortable with the price, a Hewes 240 Alaskan MLC would be at the top of my list at the moment with the 220 Ocean Pro as second choice. I'm still waiting on Duckworth Silverwing pricing, though that would have the 6 month wait, which I can almost bear. There are extenuating circumstances for not wanting to wait long for a build. My wife's health is failing (heart issues) and I want to enjoy what time I can with her out doing and not just watching from shore.

[jj225]

Sorry to hear about your wife. Life is precious. Enjoy everyday and don't have any regrets. It's what my mom used to say.

Hewes won't make the boat w/out the foam in it. I asked.

22' Sea Legend might be worth looking into. 8'9" beam.

Again best of luck.

[TimButterfield]

Thanks again, jj. The SL 22 looks nice. I like the wider beam, the 100+ gallons of fuel, and the smaller recommended motor.

[Napa Mike]

Thanks, jj. The Sea Ranger 21 HT overview page states boat/engine/trailer approximate weight at 4,000 pounds. With fuel and gear, I would be at max capacity. One thing that seems odd is standard fuel is only 48 gallons, while a Hewes 220 OceanPro is 85 gallons.

I have decided not to worry too much about weight for this boat. We have a lot of exploring, fishing, and crabbing to do around the San Juans before I need the flexibility of towing. By the time that happens, I will be able to get a used truck capable of towing it, one sized for towing the boat I would have then. Given that, if I could get comfortable with the price, a Hewes 240 Alaskan MLC would be at the top of my list at the moment with the 220 Ocean Pro as second choice. I'm still waiting on Duckworth Silverwing pricing, though that would have the 6 month wait, which I can almost bear. There are extenuating circumstances for not wanting to wait long for a build. My wife's health is failing (heart issues) and I want to enjoy what time I can with her out doing and not just watching from shore.

Hey Tim:

If you like the Duckworth Silverwing, you might inquire about a Weldcraft Ocean King 220. They are from the same parent company and the boats have the same basic dimensions. I think the Duckworth has a few more bells and whistles, but you might get an Ocean King a little quicker. Hope you can enjoy your boat with your wife for a long time.

Cheers,
Mike