Small cuddy?

[TimButterfield]

Our tow vehicle, a 2014 Jeep Cherokee (only 15' long), has a 4,500 pound tow capacity. I would like to keep the towed weight under 4,000. To keep the wife happy, we also need to have a small cuddy with v-berth and porti-potti. Being able to overnight on it would be nice. In non-alloy, there are boats like the Arima Sea Ranger 19 HT, possibly with Alaskan bulkhead, that would probably work. I've looked at several brands of alloy boat, but most only seem to have the cuddy when you get into the 22+ size range, which I wouldn't be able to tow (safely). Are there any smaller alloy boats with a cuddy that we could tow? What should I be considering? Also, how would an alloy cuddy compare with glass in cooler weather?

Thanks.

Tim

[welder]

Tim, you need to talk to Glen and the boys at http://www.Wooldridgeboats.com and look at this modle>>>> http://www.wooldridgeboats.com/uploads/ ... s-2014.pdf
They will change and customize it anyway you would like.
The weight of the 20' boat and trailer should bring you in under your limit.

I just spent a week on a 24 footer up on Prince William Sound, it's a GREAT family boat, Handles well, very good construction along with pretty good MPG [ we were running twin 150 Yamahas ]

[TimButterfield]

That 20 sport offshore is a nice boat. I had looked at Wooldridge long ago, but must have forgotten about this one. I watched the video. At about 7:00, it mentioned a 4,200 tow weight the way that one was set up, which is a bit over my target and without any gear. I would need to talk to Glen, but we might be able to reduce that just enough by swapping the stand up head walls for a potti under the berth. That might leave room for a Wallas also. I definitely need to check with Glen (or Grant) and investigate it further.

Thanks for the mention.

Tim

[Napa Mike]

Hey Tim:
You might want to check with a member here--JJ225. He is currently having Wooldridge build him a modified 20 pilothouse.


Mike

[TimButterfield]

Thanks, Mike. I've sent him a PM.

[jj225]

Tim, well I ordered the 20' PH but had some changes done. Not in any order but had it stretched to 21' and had them put in a self bailing deck along with the extended offshore bracket. Probably something you'd not want to have done to keep weight down. Not going to have a front bow rail as I don't think it's going to be useful and I'm not the one going forward to pull the hook. I didn't go with cuddy windows as it's small and really don't think it needs the light in there. Besides, when you're in a parking lot trying to sleep, having the light come in is a pain. In the picture under the Wooldridge thread you'll see that I added a custom lockable tackle station where the 2nd steering would go. I've also had Miller Marine build a fillet table that goes off the back of the transom. There will be no paint just a yellow vinyl stripe. Looks good IMO and will look better with the black Merc hanging off the back. Only thing that was painted is the cabin interior. Don't know what the total weight will be but think it' going to push around 4500lbs. Grant will weigh it when it's done. Oh I went with an alum. trailer so that probably dropped a couple hundred pounds in weight. Guess that's about it.

[TimButterfield]

Thanks for the info. I like some of the changes. It gives me some things to think about before I talk to them.

[TimButterfield]

I spoke with Glen today. He mentioned possibly not choosing a boat based on vehicle limitations. Mooring it, or only doing short tows, would lift some weight restrictions. Skipping the towing and mooring it 24/7/365 would open that even more, making something like a 23 SS Offshore pilot possible. I was surprised at the one year lead time, though it's a sign of a healthy business and demand, which is also good for possible resale later. He also mentioned the SS Offshore (non-pilot) has a cuddy. That reduces the weight even more. There is a new 2011 21' in Bellingham that has the v-berth and porti-potti we wanted. It also has a loaded Garmin package. It's tempting, but it has a canvas rear curtain instead of a bulkhead. Whether moored or parked here at the RV park we are in, I'm not sure I would want to risk expensive electronics to only canvas security. I do wonder why it has been sitting so long.

[TimButterfield]

A couple of things happened today. I went by the factory and had a look. The 26 SS OS Pilot looks really nice. The 21 of jj225 was nice also. Afterwards, I took a look at the new 2011 21 SS OS in Bellingham. That was disappointing. I was wondering why this one had not gone long ago. My guess is that it was an order that was refused on delivery. I had expected welds to be smooth. These were not. At the starboard stern side looking forward along the side decal, there were regularly spaced raised ridges in a line. It looked like tack welds were made solid between every other gap. I couldn't look behind the decal, but if true, that might mean it is not a continuous weld. There were also raised seams under the decal at the bow. On the bow port side, one of the panel surfaces looked to be at a different level (pushed in) compared with the adjacent panel. It would look much better if the decals were removed, the welds ground flat, and the decals reapplied. Are welds supposed to be raised like this or flush with the panels? I expected the latter. Irregularly raised welds are quite unsightly to me. I would not want to take delivery of this one either. This does raise a problem for me, though. I would hate to put down $35k, wait a year for my boat, and then not be able to accept what was delivered. As good a reputation as Wooldridge has, that's a fear I'm not yet sure I can get around. I would have been better off not to have seen this boat.

[jj225]

If I had to wait 13 months to get my boat I almost certainly wouldn't have ordered it. I got in just before the mad rush of orders. I understand they have 70 boats on the board right now. Not sure what I would have bought. Didn't like Raider, Hewescraft or Kingfisher as all 3 have foam. Really liked my North River Seahawk of 9 years but they won't do much customizing. Most of the manufactures won't customize so who does that leave you with? Custom builders who charge a lot. I priced out Lee Shore, Armstrong, Silver Streak, Crozier, Pacific Northwest Alum. to name a few. Didn't even bother with TJ, Duckworth/Weldcraft and Alumaweld. Touch choice and I don't envy you.

Not sure about the boat in Bellingham but if it's that red one that thing is plain butt ugly. No wonder it hasn't sold. Thing is priced more than what I'm paying for mine or close to it. I talked to a lot of owners and did not find one that didn't like/love their boat in all aspects. I didn't just get them from Grant either. I looked them up on various forums.

[Chaps]

The problem you'll have with the custom builders will be higher weight since they are typically fully welded "plate" boats with 1/4" bottoms and extensive framing. The production guys are just that, pumping out lots of units with little time or inclination to modify their good selling designs. Have you looked through all the builders websites in our Boat Builder Master List ? Lot of other companies on that list both here and in Canada that might be able to build your ideal boat.

For instance here is a 20 Ironwood that might work for you, premium build quality and with a strong USA dollar relative to the Canadian buck the price might be decent

[TimButterfield]

jj, If the basics are there, I don't really need customizing. I'm primarily just wanting to compare apples to apples on features of the non-alloy boats I've looked at. I haven't decided on alloy vs non-alloy yet. The boat in Bellingham was white, this one, also shown on the Wooldridge site here. The lighting makes a big difference on whether the issues are readily visible or not. Yesterday, about 3:30pm or so, the light was hitting it just right to make shadows where the decal was raised due to the welds. Actually, the use of light would be an easy way to eyeball a new weld setup. After tacking, shine a bright light towards where you will be looking from (in a striped pattern) along the sides to see if the shadow lines on the metal make any irregularities more obvious. The striped pattern can be used to check the boat lines. A flat light towards you along the sides can be used to check the welds and for panel flushness. Another example of this is where a vertical weld seam along the curve of the bow can be pushed in slightly. The light would look differently at that point. It does not make a boat unsafe, but it messes up symmetry. Some of us are sensitive that way. ;)

Chaps, I had not gone through the list, though that would be a good idea. I did look through many of the olds threads here, though. So far, I've just done the factory tour of the first suggestion in this thread. One advantage of some of the production boats (Hewes is stocked near me along with Kingfisher) is that you can see more production samples in a completed state. Then again, I don't like everything I see/heard there either. I don't have a passport so those north of the border would have to wait until I could get one.

[paddler]

The problem you'll have with the custom builders will be higher weight since they are typically fully welded "plate" boats with 1/4" bottoms and extensive framing. The production guys are just that, pumping out lots of units with little time or inclination to modify their good selling designs. Have you looked through all the builders websites in our Boat Builder Master List ? Lot of other companies on that list both here and in Canada that might be able to build your ideal boat.

For instance here is a 20 Ironwood that might work for you, premium build quality and with a strong USA dollar relative to the Canadian buck the price might be decent

I entirely agree about the weight issue. I don't think .250"/.190" material is necessary until you get up to 26' or so. Using .190/.125" material would result in substantial weight savings. In, say, a 23' boat, the hull weight may be ~3000# instead of 3800#. I proposed this approach to one builder who expressed no interest. I even suggested the name "Half Ton OS", as in an offshore pilothouse boat that could easily be towed by a half ton pickup instead of a 3/4 ton diesel. The weight savings on the hull would allow the use of outboards in the 150HP-175HP range, a lighter trailer, etc. The capacity should actually increase as the material weight would decrease while displacement would remain constant. Neither functionality nor safety would suffer. Or am I crazy?

[Chtucker]

Are you expecting a fully faired welded boat?

The lumps/dimes/a honestly a bit of splatter on my boat are a non-issue, especially since I don't have paint.

Welder made the comment at one point about Pacific producing a boat with out scratching the plate. I can't say that about Armstrong.

I think what you are describing is what I would call stich welding.. They can't make a continous bead without overheating/warping the panel. So they do a run, stop, skip and then come back. The starts are where you would see the depression. Not a very technical description, but that is what I believe you are seeing.

As for the weight thing, here are my biased thoughts.

You are sizing a boat based on a vehicle that is already 10+ years old with a limited life span. The costs of maintaining that vehicle + the costs of factoring in a replacement + the cost of the trailer + the cost of the trailer mainenance are alot. You are talking about watching you money, trying to save a few dollars when the boat costs $100k.

The math wil be diiferent for you, but here is ours:

We don't own a tow vehicle rated for more than 5k. Both of our cars are in excellent shape and paid off. 2007 FJ cruiser with 90k miles and 2011 Prius with 30k. I take the bus to work 80% of the time.

New used tow vehicle $15k (1 ton gasser with under 150k miles)
New trailer $10k
Trailer/vehicle maintenance/registration/insurance at a minimum $1500 a year
Spread over 10 years:
$25k capital investment, $15k in ownership
$40k for 10 years

10 years of moorage at $330 a month about $40k

Of course there is inflation and haulout costs for repairs... figure once a year haulout at $175.

It is about a wash. I don't think I am being unreasonable with my cost estimates. Trying to tow a $100k investment I think justifies a reliable/safe tow vehicle.

[Chtucker]

The problem you'll have with the custom builders will be higher weight since they are typically fully welded "plate" boats with 1/4" bottoms and extensive framing. The production guys are just that, pumping out lots of units with little time or inclination to modify their good selling designs. Have you looked through all the builders websites in our Boat Builder Master List ? Lot of other companies on that list both here and in Canada that might be able to build your ideal boat.

For instance here is a 20 Ironwood that might work for you, premium build quality and with a strong USA dollar relative to the Canadian buck the price might be decent

I entirely agree about the weight issue. I don't think .250"/.190" material is necessary until you get up to 26' or so. Using .190/.125" material would result in substantial weight savings. In, say, a 23' boat, the hull weight may be ~3000# instead of 3800#. I proposed this approach to one builder who expressed no interest. I even suggested the name "Half Ton OS", as in an offshore pilothouse boat that could easily be towed by a half ton pickup instead of a 3/4 ton diesel. The weight savings on the hull would allow the use of outboards in the 150HP-175HP range, a lighter trailer, etc. The capacity should actually increase as the material weight would decrease while displacement would remain constant. Neither functionality nor safety would suffer. Or am I crazy?

I disagree, the builders know thier products/market and engineering design. Most people want overbuilt rather than just "ok"

[TimButterfield]

Thanks for explaining what I was seeing on the sides near the stern. I didn't really have expectations other than consistency and did not remember seeing that in the factory. Not being familiar with how welded boats go together, everything else is learning.

As for our tow vehicle, it's brand new. I just had the message display indicating the first oil change is due soon. We live full-time in our RV and upgraded from a fifth wheel to a motorhome this past February. The Cherokee was purchased to flat tow behind it. Our prior tow vehicle for the fifth wheel would have been fine with a heavier boat. It was a Ram 2500 diesel. But, we needed something easier for my wife to drive around town, shorter to fit an RV site we wanted to get into, have a back seat, and have an enclosed area for the dog behind the seats. So, the Ram got traded for the Jeep. We need to either tow with this vehicle or get a slip. The rates here are a bit lower. Rates for a 30' slip at Cap Sante are $265 monthly, $251 for annual contract, and $230 pre-paid yearly. It is something we are seriously considering.

[Chtucker]

Forgot that they re released the Cherokee!

At $230 a month it is a no brainer.. Slip it!
woops!

[TimButterfield]

Yep, almost a no-brainer. It's why we looked at the 26 SS OS Pilot yesterday. Still, I just want to be sure when I make the decision and so do my due diligence in the comparisons searching for the optimal mix of compromises for our specific needs.

[jj225]

No passport aye? Thing about going Canuck is that the IF you buy the motors in Canada they won't be warrantied in the States. Silver Streak has a dealer in Bellingham so you can get around that. Kingfisher has distributors so not an issue. Ironwood does not. You'd have to buy the motor(s) and ship them up there and have him install them. Of course his boat would go WAY over your tow limits. As Chaps said heavy gauge boat.

For me I wanted something relatively light. I will fish at high altitude lakes at times and do 2k miles to fish Flaming Gorge. Heavy boat I do not like. Heavy boat means bigger motor, heavier trailer and bigger tow vehicle. Heavy boat means more maintenance on trailer and tow vehicle. Been there done that.

[paddler]

The problem you'll have with the custom builders will be higher weight since they are typically fully welded "plate" boats with 1/4" bottoms and extensive framing. The production guys are just that, pumping out lots of units with little time or inclination to modify their good selling designs. Have you looked through all the builders websites in our Boat Builder Master List ? Lot of other companies on that list both here and in Canada that might be able to build your ideal boat.

For instance here is a 20 Ironwood that might work for you, premium build quality and with a strong USA dollar relative to the Canadian buck the price might be decent

I entirely agree about the weight issue. I don't think .250"/.190" material is necessary until you get up to 26' or so. Using .190/.125" material would result in substantial weight savings. In, say, a 23' boat, the hull weight may be ~3000# instead of 3800#. I proposed this approach to one builder who expressed no interest. I even suggested the name "Half Ton OS", as in an offshore pilothouse boat that could easily be towed by a half ton pickup instead of a 3/4 ton diesel. The weight savings on the hull would allow the use of outboards in the 150HP-175HP range, a lighter trailer, etc. The capacity should actually increase as the material weight would decrease while displacement would remain constant. Neither functionality nor safety would suffer. Or am I crazy?

I disagree, the builders know thier products/market and engineering design. Most people want overbuilt rather than just "ok"

Are you sure about that? Do you think most builders hire marine architects for their designs? I called Bruce Cope today to talk about this and many other design issues. He recently designed a vessel with 100,000# displacement. Guess what the bottom plate thickness was? Yep, .250". He's sure that .190"/.125" material is more than satisfactory in the 24' class. Takes more skill to weld, but that's a different question. More to come. Just remember where you heard it first.

[Chtucker]

In my mind it doesn't matter if .190 would be enough. If you try to sell a custom/semi-custom boat it will be brought into quesion. Right or wrong.

Eaglecraft has had this boat for sale for almost a year now. http://eaglecraft.bc.ca/boats-for-sale/ ... -outboard/

It is cursed with 150hp twins and a .190 bottom. The 150s push the boat OK and the .190 is "ok"

It is difficult to sell a boat with "ok" power and .190 bottom.

[choyero]

It's worth every penny to go with the heavier material. During a wind storm this summer, off Salt Spring Island, my boat, a Pacific 21, repeatedly slammed into the dock without a scratch or a dent. My glass boat would of been a disaster. Lighter gage material is a poor trade for a step up in HP of your towing vehicle.

[paddler]

In my mind it doesn't matter if .190 would be enough. If you try to sell a custom/semi-custom boat it will be brought into quesion. Right or wrong.

Eaglecraft has had this boat for sale for almost a year now. http://eaglecraft.bc.ca/boats-for-sale/ ... -outboard/

It is cursed with 150hp twins and a .190 bottom. The 150s push the boat OK and the .190 is "ok"

It is difficult to sell a boat with "ok" power and .190 bottom.

That link pulls up a boat with .250" hull plate, so your argument doesn't hold water. So to speak.;) Further, I'll place more credence in the opinion of well-recognized and experienced designer than the average builder. Resale doesn't concern me much, as I want to do this once with the idea of long term ownership. I think if this boat were built and shown at a boat show, it's advantages would be readily apparent to potential customers. It would be the most efficient 24' aluminum fishing boat possible. I intend to pursue it further unless the cost is exorbitant.

[Napa Mike]

In my mind it doesn't matter if .190 would be enough. If you try to sell a custom/semi-custom boat it will be brought into quesion. Right or wrong.

Eaglecraft has had this boat for sale for almost a year now. http://eaglecraft.bc.ca/boats-for-sale/ ... -outboard/

It is cursed with 150hp twins and a .190 bottom. The 150s push the boat OK and the .190 is "ok"

It is difficult to sell a boat with "ok" power and .190 bottom.

that boat won't sell because of the goofy paint job and name! :-)

[Chtucker]

I stand corrected as it was over a year ago that we went to Cambell River to visit Eaglecraft. The boat has 5/32 sides, thinner than most as the hull was subbed out to a company that could form the sides in one piece. Eaglecraft was attempting to make a lower cost boat.

I think are you mistaken by not believing in taking resale into consideration. No one wants to sell ever. Sometimes we want out and sometimes we want bigger. Your needs might change.

Armstrong has 2 full time naval architects in addition to a couple of CAD drafters. They cut there own plate, very few do. NONE of their boats have anything less than 1/4" bottoms. They have been pumping out 2-3 boats a week lately.

If you build something that only you believe it, and (you might be right about .190 being extremely adequate ) you will need to convince a buyer that is.

It is not like you will be able to go with a 150 instead of 300. It will be the difference of 150 or 200. The 150/200 Yamahas weigh the same. I don't believe you will save 800lbs, but if 800lbs is your margin of comfort, that is really tight.

If you save TENTHs of gallon per mile of fuel I would be surprised. MAYBE a $100 a year saved in fuel.

My boat with twin 250s gets the same mileage as a lighter boat with 200s. My only regret about my boat was not getting the 300s.. Heck if a 557 from Seven Marine was the same as twin 250s I might have done that.

I just don't believe that you are going to save much by trying to trim weight, I actually think you will loose more when the time comes to sell.


When