Choosing a builder

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Voyageur
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Choosing a builder

#1

Post by Voyageur »

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Hello everyone,

Long time lurker - what a great site with a lot of knowledge. This post isn't meant to be about 'the build', but how you choose a builder. I'll post a different thread on the build and things to consider on my build when that time comes. Looking to pull the trigger on a build in the next ~year for a Spring 2016 delivery. I would like you to share your knowledge on how you chose your builder, questions to ask them, mistakes to avoid, negotiating price, contracts, all the things I may not be thinking of? I want to tap into the vast knowledge here to make my entire experience go as smoothly as possible.

I live in Minnesota and am planning to travel to meet builder before I make a commitment. The build would be custom/semi-custom. I'm in the pre-contact-the-prospective-builders stage - I want to start off on the right foot. Builders being considered: Silverstreak - unlikey being they are in Canada but I love their Swiftsure model, Bay Weld, Armstrong, Lee Shore, North River, Crozier Craft. ALL comments, questions or input welcomed. PM's are fine if you prefer.

Thank you for all your help.

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Chtucker
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Re: Choosing a builder

#2

Post by Chtucker »

I have spoken to almost all of those. The are very different size/type/customization level builders.

I chose Armstrong... and would be happy to tell you why. There are few others your missing that you might want to consider as well.

I will PM my phone number...
Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#3

Post by Voyageur »

Chtucker wrote:I have spoken to almost all of those. The are very different size/type/customization level builders.

I chose Armstrong... and would be happy to tell you why. There are few others your missing that you might want to consider as well.

I will PM my phone number...
It was very nice talking with you this afternoon Howard. Great to hear from someone having gone through the process of selecting a builder. Glad yours was a positive experience with Armstrong. Thanks again.


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welder
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Re: Choosing a builder

#4

Post by welder »

So, is this boat a Lake boat and what do you want it to do for you?
3 or 4 day weekends at a time, a day boat, Cabin, pilot house or open boat. These answers may help with choosing a builder.
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Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#5

Post by Voyageur »

welder wrote:So, is this boat a Lake boat and what do you want it to do for you?
3 or 4 day weekends at a time, a day boat, Cabin, pilot house or open boat. These answers may help with choosing a builder.
It would remain in lake water almost all of the time. Large lakes in the Midwest, Rainy Lake, Lake of the woods, Devils Lake, Lake Superior, etc. I would use it as a platform form for 2-4 people to hunt, fish, and camp out of 4 - 6 days at a time. I think one of the key attributes is being able to beach land it - I really like Bay Welds drop bow for this. Does anyone else make such an animal?
The draw back to that is you lose the front cuddy. So a pilot house with forward slanted windows, heater, head, table, front facing passenger seating. Not sure how many "appliances" I want. A pretty big back deck 7x8 at a minimum. Am thinking I'd be very happy with a 9'6" x 28'. All comments, questions welcomed.


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Last edited by Voyageur on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Choosing a builder

#6

Post by goatram »

Munsun in WA makes a landing craft as does Maverick
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Chtucker
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Re: Choosing a builder

#7

Post by Chtucker »

We didn't discuss your needs on the phone, just the process and some,about the builders.

That's a lot of stuff in a small space.

All of the builders have done drop bows. Some more than others. John's suggestion of Munson is probably the most prolific drop bow builder. Armstrong only does drop bows in their Catamarans.

I would nail down your needs and talk to a few builders.

You can PM me or call if you want to talk budget.

What do you want for power? Twins? How fast do you want to go?
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Re: Choosing a builder

#8

Post by Chtucker »

If you are omfortable witha Volvo D4and stern drive..
Check out
http://www.munsonboats.com/stock.php

The have a 26' with everything you want with 4 hours on it.

If that is what you want, I would jump on it.
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Re: Choosing a builder

#9

Post by Voyageur »

Chtucker wrote:We didn't discuss your needs on the phone, just the process and some,about the builders.

That's a lot of stuff in a small space.

All of the builders have done drop bows. Some more than others. John's suggestion of Munson is probably the most prolific drop bow builder. Armstrong only does drop bows in their Catamarans.

I would nail down your needs and talk to a few builders.

You can PM me or call if you want to talk budget.

What do you want for power? Twins? How fast do you want to go?
The reason I like the Bay Weld walkthrough hull is you maintain the V bow front. Not really interested in a traditional landing craft style hull. I do appreciate the help/suggestion though.

Twins. I'm thinking V-6 250's would keep me very happy, where as inline 4 150-200's may not. <45mph. I will not be underpowered, if I cannot afford the power I desire its a temporary deal breaker - I'll save more money. Is it possible to be over-powered as far a fuel economy? How did you decide on power?


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Re: Choosing a builder

#10

Post by spoiled one »

Voyageur wrote:
Chtucker wrote:We didn't discuss your needs on the phone, just the process and some,about the builders.

That's a lot of stuff in a small space.

All of the builders have done drop bows. Some more than others. John's suggestion of Munson is probably the most prolific drop bow builder. Armstrong only does drop bows in their Catamarans.

I would nail down your needs and talk to a few builders.

You can PM me or call if you want to talk budget.

What do you want for power? Twins? How fast do you want to go?
The reason I like the Bay Weld walkthrough hull is you maintain the V bow front. Not really interested in a traditional landing craft style hull. I do appreciate the help/suggestion though.

Twins. I'm thinking V-6 250's would keep me very happy, where as inline 4 150-200's may not. <45mph. I will not be underpowered, if I cannot afford the power I desire its a temporary deal breaker - I'll save more money. Is it possible to be over-powered as far a fuel economy? How did you decide on power?


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A friend of mine has been on a few sea trials on Baywelds powered with the new F200s and they are an impressive motor. The 28x9.5 was getting 2.0 mpg at 30 mph and would hit the mid to upper 40s WOT. I do not believe you can achieve that kind of economy with the 250s. With the price of fuel, this is a serious consideration. That being said, I sure would like a pair of F300s hanging off the back of Patience!
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Chtucker
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Re: Choosing a builder

#11

Post by Chtucker »

spoiled one wrote:
Voyageur wrote:
Chtucker wrote:We didn't discuss your needs on the phone, just the process and some,about the builders.

That's a lot of stuff in a small space.

All of the builders have done drop bows. Some more than others. John's suggestion of Munson is probably the most prolific drop bow builder. Armstrong only does drop bows in their Catamarans.

I would nail down your needs and talk to a few builders.

You can PM me or call if you want to talk budget.

What do you want for power? Twins? How fast do you want to go?
The reason I like the Bay Weld walkthrough hull is you maintain the V bow front. Not really interested in a traditional landing craft style hull. I do appreciate the help/suggestion though.

Twins. I'm thinking V-6 250's would keep me very happy, where as inline 4 150-200's may not. <45mph. I will not be underpowered, if I cannot afford the power I desire its a temporary deal breaker - I'll save more money. Is it possible to be over-powered as far a fuel economy? How did you decide on power?


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A friend of mine has been on a few sea trials on Baywelds powered with the new F200s and they are an impressive motor. The 28x9.5 was getting 2.0 mpg at 30 mph and would hit the mid to upper 40s WOT. I do not believe you can achieve that kind of economy with the 250s. With the price of fuel, this is a serious consideration. That being said, I sure would like a pair of F300s hanging off the back of Patience!
I see about the same as the sister ship to mine. My boat has 250s his 200s. I see 1.8mpg, he sees 1.9mpg. His cruise is 22 knots. mine is 24 knots to start, my fuel mileage really doesn't change till I start pushing 28-29 knots. I get up on plane at 3100 rpm with no tabs and he is at 3900 rpm. I can get up to 3700 rpm with no real effect on fuel mileage (speed and GPH go up).

I think they are both good choices. There is about a 5k difference in price.

The 200s are supposed to take 89 octane. The ECM "should" take care of lower octanes... but it didn't and there was just a recall issued on the motors.

VF150, F200LB, F200XB, LF200XB, F200XCA, AND LF200XCA MODELS
Engine Control Unit (ECU) Replacement
PAGE 1 of 4
©2014 YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, U.S.A.
It has been determined that some specific gasoline formulations may cause engine knock that cannot be adequately detected and controlled by the current ECU mapping. Excessive engine knock could result in possible engine damage. To prevent possible issues, the ECU should be replaced with a new ECU containing revised mapping that has improved knock detection and control.
Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#12

Post by Voyageur »

spoiled one wrote: A friend of mine has been on a few sea trials on Baywelds powered with the new F200s and they are an impressive motor. The 28x9.5 was getting 2.0 mpg at 30 mph and would hit the mid to upper 40s WOT. I do not believe you can achieve that kind of economy with the 250s. With the price of fuel, this is a serious consideration. That being said, I sure would like a pair of F300s hanging off the back of Patience!
That's sounds promising. Heard so much about i4 yamahas being dogs? I'll see what Bay Weld says. I'd just hate to be underpowered - even a little. :thumbsup: Another option is Suzuki is coming out with a inline-4 200hp later this year I want to check out.


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Last edited by Voyageur on Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#13

Post by Voyageur »

Chtucker wrote:
I see about the same as the sister ship to mine. My boat has 250s his 200s. I see 1.8mpg, he sees 1.9mpg. His cruise is 22 knots. mine is 24 knots to start, my fuel mileage really doesn't change till I start pushing 28-29 knots. I get up on plane at 3100 rpm with no tabs and he is at 3900 rpm. I can get up to 3700 rpm with no real effect on fuel mileage (speed and GPH go up).

I think they are both good choices. There is about a 5k difference in price.

The 200s are supposed to take 89 octane. The ECM "should" take care of lower octanes... but it didn't and there was just a recall issued on the motors.

VF150, F200LB, F200XB, LF200XB, F200XCA, AND LF200XCA MODELS
Engine Control Unit (ECU) Replacement
PAGE 1 of 4
©2014 YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, U.S.A.
It has been determined that some specific gasoline formulations may cause engine knock that cannot be adequately detected and controlled by the current ECU mapping. Excessive engine knock could result in possible engine damage. To prevent possible issues, the ECU should be replaced with a new ECU containing revised mapping that has improved knock detection and control.
It's almost like the old "no replacement for displacement" is getting disproved a little??? If I'm understanding right he's seeing higher rpms to get into his power curve to achieve his hp? I'm not seeing an advantage on paper here - at 168 more ci than he has - that's 50% more displacement!! Isn't your boat much more responsive, quicker, to plane, quicker to 30 mph, top end? How much dry/wet weight are you at?

Very interesting & informative.


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Re: Choosing a builder

#14

Post by Chtucker »

The biggest difference is my power band is much wider. I don't need to spin up to 4000 RPM to cruise. I can cruise at 1.8 mpg from 24 knots all the way to 30ish knots. I at 32 knots at 4000 and have a lot more throttle to go.

The boat with 200s is pushing almost 5000rpm at 30 knots and tops out at 38, maybe 39 knots.

So the displacement myth holds true.

That and there is no worry about 87 octane. If I was to do it again I would have spent the $1500 extra and went with the 300s.

You only live once. An over powered boat is easier to sell than an underpowered boat. I winked and nodded the other night with the Armstrong crew... They would have put twin 557s or twin 350s if I had the money or desire.
Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#15

Post by Voyageur »

Thanks Howard. That all makes sense.

Do you know much does your boat weighs just boat and motors - dry? And wet?


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Chtucker
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Re: Choosing a builder

#16

Post by Chtucker »

Voyageur wrote:Thanks Howard. That all makes sense.

Do you know much does your boat weighs just boat and motors - dry? And wet?


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Short answer no....

The boat with 200s was spells with a 10k GVW trailer. The trailer weighs about 1,400. I think they went a little light on the trailers, I cat imagine that it is only 8,600lbs.

Added onto my boat
Hot water heater
20 gallon larger fuel tank
10 gallons more fresh water
And 200lbs more motor approximately.
I also have a few more "options". And I got learn from the mistakes on that boat.

So about 500lbs at least heavier. I would say 10,000lbs is more accurate.

Johns boat is significantly heavier, but roughly the same size. He has a lot more metal, continuous welds and again al to more metal. He is at 13,000lbs as I recall.
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Re: Choosing a builder

#17

Post by Chaps »

Chtucker wrote:
Voyageur wrote:
Johns boat is significantly heavier, but roughly the same size. He has a lot more metal, continuous welds and again al to more metal. He is at 13,000lbs as I recall.
He can correct but it didn't feel that heavy when I lifted it, but he wasn't in it at the time . . . :beer:
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Re: Choosing a builder

#18

Post by Chtucker »

Chaps wrote:
Chtucker wrote:
Voyageur wrote:
Johns boat is significantly heavier, but roughly the same size. He has a lot more metal, continuous welds and again al to more metal. He is at 13,000lbs as I recall.
He can correct but it didn't feel that heavy when I lifted it, but he wasn't in it at the time . . . :beer:
Even more with me...

I think that 13 is his loaded for battle load...
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Re: Choosing a builder

#19

Post by Chtucker »

We stopped at the weigh station just outside of Aberdeen to finally figure out the total weight of her fully fueled and my tongue weight as well. Tongue wt was 1670lbs. Total trailer wt 14900lbs minus the trailer wt of 3200 lbs the boat's wt is 11700lbs. Add in a tote of ice and 60 gallons of water in the bait tank and a few dozen tuna; her combat load is around 15,000lbs with six guys on board. Her fuel usage was between 64 to 72 gallons. Run in speed with this load at 4500rpm was around 32mph. That said I think my motors were too low in the water and the motors had too much toe in.


You are correct 11,700 lbs
Voyageur
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Re: Choosing a builder

#20

Post by Voyageur »

Thanks for all your help/thoughts Howard! It is greatly appreciated!
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Re: Choosing a builder

#21

Post by Chtucker »

Best way to learn is through others mistakes...
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