Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

General boating discussion
markh2000
Sponsor
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:34 pm
11

Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#1

Post by markh2000 »

Pacific Powertrain is the new Marine Power engine distributer for the aluminum boat industry. We will be stocking all the popular Marine Power GM engine models they offer, and most parts you may require. Marine Power is dedicated to continuing to build and offer the proven 5.7L 6.0L 6.2L and LSA engines, and we are proud to distribute them to all of the OEM Aluminum boat builders here in the US and Canada, and our fellow boaters out there that are looking for a re-power engine.
We will have a engine technician available for any engine issues and for help with re-power installations.

These GM engines are a great proven product that continues to improve, and is the lightest engine available in its class.

Call us for a quote or more information...509-243-7840 we look forward to providing the best service and availability in our industry.
Attachments
We have inventory!
We have inventory!
6.2 LSA with custom exhaust headers
6.2 LSA with custom exhaust headers
kmorin
Donator 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:37 am
15
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#2

Post by kmorin »

Markh2k, with the number of builders producing welded aluminum boats that are designed for outboard power what do you see as the market trend for the size in boats that use inboards? In the years gone by say the 70's, 80's, I'd have said most owners in the 25'-28' class hull were somewhat on the fence as to power inboard or outboard? But now I see 30+foot boats with a couple of huge displacement outboards that would have been an assured inboard decision 'back in the day'.

How do you see the hull size influencing the decision to go inboard or outboard today?
Do you see a trend or a LOA point where one or the other power type is the more common?
Skipping the 'ad speak' claims for either product... that is all outboard makers will claim "100 miles per gallon" and all inboard engine sales will claim "100 miles per gallon"- and both of these are 'ad speak'.... what hard data is available from an independent test of 'apples to apples' boats that allows a decent comparison of performance?
How do the outboard horse power compare in price to inboard horsepower? (if outboards average $100/hp do inboards average $50/hp or $200/hp?)
My experience building welded boats shows the installing the inboard package was much more labor intensive- and that is one reason I see many builders going to outboards. What kind of time to install effort do you folks figure is reasonable/estimated/"guessed" to be used in comparison to outboard power?

I like inboards for the on board heater and hydraulic pumps that come so easily with the engine inside the hull. But with today's low cost diesel cabin heaters in such small sizes one of my favorite reasons for inboard installs has been eliminated. Another factor in the market today is the presence of small but very high torque electrical winches that are much higher quality than were available in the 70's and 80's when I built- and they, like the compact heaters, seem to have made hydraulic systems less important for any but commercial boats.

Do you see most of your installs in welded metal boats including engine cooling systems in the build as cabin heaters? How about non-commercial boats or the similar classes; do you see hydraulic pumps regularly on non-commercial welded boat installations?

What class (rough description) of boat do you see as the most common welded boat that has an inboard package?

IN the past, boats with inboards surveyed consistently higher in resale value than outboard powered boats. I did surveys for a couple of insurance companies in the 80's because I was building in welded aluminum in the Cook Inlet area. I was informed by several underwriters that even a boat with a damaged or non-running inboard was often 'worth more' than the same general class of boat with a running outboard. I'm not sure if that was due to the 2stroke nature of the outboard engines versus the 4 stroke inboards (?) but I wonder if you see similar insurance industry trends today? Of course, that may not be in your area of work but I just wondered it this were still a fact of marine insurance?

Thanks for any time to discuss these topics, the readers here probably already line up as inboard or outboard skippers (?) but if time allows I'd like to explore this type of power more here at AAB.com Forum. I think we've seen some inboards cut out and converted to outboards on the Forum but I don't recall any outboards being converted the other way? It would be interesting to discuss the idea of benefits to a conversion, not just re-power in kind, but conversion from outboard to inboard.

I appreciate your post on the products your firm is offering, I hope we can explore how they may be applied to new builds, rebuilds, and conversions of existing hulls.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
markh2000
Sponsor
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:34 pm
11

Re: Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#3

Post by markh2000 »

Kevin,
Thanks for the questions. I will go ahead and "bite" to open up some discussion on the pros/cons of outboard vs inboard...I hope everyone else out there will chime in to give there real life numbers for the outboard combo they feel would compare to a LSA/jet package used on similar boats. Answers to your questions:

Here in the fresh water, river running crowd, few will consider an outboard because they can't tolerate the prop and lower unit hanging down below the bottom of the boat. Many others in lakes or warmer waters, where they are swimming off of there boats prefer the safety of a inboard jet so there is no prop hazard to contend with. Outboards with jet pumps are very inefficient and not used much except with some open guide boats who need the inside space. Anyway most of the recreational OEM's we sell to, who installing inboard gas engines, are mounting jet pumps to them, and using them in 20' to 25' boats with single engines, and 26' to 32' or more with twin engines.
As far as performance, I grew up hearing that outboards were considered to be more efficient than inboard jets. However, as we have seen with our modern automobiles, Detroit is putting out far more efficient engines than ever before. And with the GM line up of aluminum block engines, also lighter than ever before. for example:
A 6.2 liter LSA fully marinized will weigh about 730 pounds + another 130 lbs for a 212 pump, and puts out 530 HP and 500+ ft/pds of torque or lets say 1.56 lbs/HP and cost around $17,000 + $6,000 for a 212 Hamilton
One of these motors coupled to a Hamilton 212 jet pump installed in a 24' planning hull river boat weighing around 5000 lbs. empty or lets say 6000 lbs with a light load will top out WOT at around 55+ mph, pretty impressive numbers. Or cruise at 3200 - 3300 RPM around 30 mph burning about 10 gph
I am pretty confident of the inboard jet numbers as I operate these boats all the time.

The least expensive way to get 500HP with outboards would be to buy (2) 250HP outboards at what...$24,000 each or $48,000 about twice the expense of a LSA/jet combo
Each engine will weigh approx. 650 lbs. or 1300 for both (2.6 lbs/HP) compared to 860 lbs (1.56 lbs./HP) for the LSA/212 combo
Each out board will burn approx. 9.5 gph each at 4000 rpm giving a 30 - 32 mph cruise on a comparable 24' boat, or 19 gph compared to 10 gph with the LSA
The outboards will likely have a higher top speed than the LSA's, 65 mph at WOT maybe?
All you outboard operators please correct my numbers if you have different results as I do not have much experience with 150+ HP outboards.
I am basing these numbers off of a the attached Mercury spec sheet bellow.

As you can see in almost every category the 530hp LSA inboard jet seems to out perform the outboards and probably would even if you dropped back to (2) 225hp outboards.

Other points:
One advantage the outboards have is, more room inside the boat...
Inboard hot water heaters work real well (as long as your motor is running) with inboards, with no messy diesel to pack, no fumes and no exhaust.
I do not see hyd. pumps on recreational boats other than our 12V electric over hydraulic pumps we use for Hyd. reverse buckets
Outboards are expensive to buy and not easy to work on by the average boater, the inboards are a little friendlier with parts you can recognize...
Jets have no props hanging down to ding

I see many recreational boats with inboards, both aluminum and NON ALLOY and more and more commercial boats as well...stern drives and jets

I can not speak to insurance value placed on a given boat, but in board welded aluminum boats of any power seem to be steadily gaining in popularity as our OEM's keep making them nicer, faster and more efficient every year. Many consumers in all sectors are recognizing the durability and performance of the welded aluminum boat. Inboard or outboard.
Attachments
Mercury specs for 250 HP outboards
Mercury specs for 250 HP outboards
kmorin
Donator 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:37 am
15
Location: Kenai, Alaska

Re: Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#4

Post by kmorin »

Mark, thanks for the reply, great points. I was, of course, thinking salt water offshore, models in my mind, as that's my primary local experience. I didn't even think of the obvious jet pump driven boats when thinking inboards :!: Maybe a little narrow in my thinking?

I built a couple of inboard jet (we called them sleds) boats in the 70's with 460 Fords and 10" Hamilton pumps and they went so fast I was white knuckled in my ride-a-long with the widely grinning owner. These were operating in the Kenai River which now has a horsepower limit due mine and other builds being a little noisy for the home owners. I don't recall much about the builds, I didn't design the boats but built from plans provided with engine/pump sets provided; but they did run well even in salt water. Low speed steering in a swell was a complaint but the original owners stayed with the boats for years so I guess they figured that out?

I didn't think of the jet drive class boat as one of the obvious strengths for the inboard engine installation. I also wasn't aware of the power to wt and the favorable costs or gas use numbers; these figures are similar to what they used to be decades ago when I built full time. I'm more of an inboard fan than I was!

How are outdrives holding up? I used to install the Merc Alpha and the Bravo drives, even in some commercial net boats (salt water) where many owners felt they'd have too much torque load to stand up. The Volvo drives in the 70's and 80's seemed to be more fragile than the Merc drives of similar sizes but since I haven't installed an outdrive in 20 years.....

Which brands of I/O legs do you see (when you see them) most popular? (If you only sell one brand I guess this question isn't very informative.)
IF your in-house sales guys are advising me on the phone, pre-sales, which brand is the most well respected from the dealer's point of view? (best cost-to-longevity, least maintenance and overall best 'bang for the buck')
What is the smallest size I/O prop soaking up from and inboard package? (I used a Merc 4 cylinder 140 hp package in a 24' lightly built boat and it has performed very well for 22 seasons; giving good mileage and high 20's cruise speed for years.)
Are there any new generation inboard outboard drives? ( I know that Volvo's 'dual prop' was supposed to be a big generational change in technology?- Do you or the firm have any experience or opinions on that drive? What about any other 'new' drives?)

Which brands of jet pumps drives are the most popular? (I've built with the Tractor [commercial] and the Hamilton but not others..)
There was a 'new' water pump drive that is on a thread somewhere here at the AAB.com Forum.... it was from Down Under and the impellers were not only- not purely bladed props in a venturi; the shafts actually oscillated to create a progressive cavity type of pump/thrusting action. This drive was under testing a year or two ago-not sure if its marketed yet? Are the products you're working with of any newer technology? "Newer" meaning any significant upgrades to the 'old' Hamilton Style pumps of the 80's?

You mentioned hydraulic pumps on the water pumps- is this because of the force needed to position the reverse bucket or the forces needed to move a steering vane or deflector? I'm not sure if the old models I've seen could be used to guide me to ask this question since the reverse and steering mechanism may be much different from 30 years ago?

As to room inside the stern deck area which may be taken up with engine cowling. I saw, but did not build, a 26'er that had a mid engine, and a jack shaft & carrier bearing to the stern drive and found the deck very open since the engine cover/cowling was part of the after cabin bulkhead leaving about 8' of open deck. I wonder why this arrangement isn't more common?

It seemed to me a better place for the engine, amidships, and the I/O was under a 'swim platform' transom overhang so the 'fish-ability' seemed no worse than outboards but all the people I talked with about that idea seem to find fault - some fault. I liked it and would consider one myself if I were building an offshore boat for myself.

I guess it's like so many other design trends, they go in waves and fads but aren't always as logical as they're claimed to be?

Thanks for the reply, it was interesting to see that even if outboards have improved their relative cost of ownership is still not very appealing (to me) for the reasons they weren't 30-some years ago.

If any of your local builders happen to have some photos of any of your engine packages installed in a welded boat, we'd sure enjoy some pictures, especially if they included images of the build sequence, hull accommodations for the drive and other structural details.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
markh2000
Sponsor
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:34 pm
11

Re: Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#5

Post by markh2000 »

Kevin,
First of all, our company does not sell stern drive units, only jet drives. Consequently, I am not qualified to speak as to which stern drive unit is better than another.
I believe Mercury and Volvo are the leaders in our drive sales, but there are other manufacturers that build them as well, like Yanmar, Ilmor and Konrad to name three more.
I imagine that in this day and age, any of them would be good units.

As far as jet pumps go, Hamilton is by far the best seller in the recreational boat market, and likely in the work boat market as well, with American Turbine following and a few more manufacturers trailing behind them. Hamilton and American Turbine (built in our home town) are constantly improving their products. The modern Jet Pump is a very efficient means of propulsion and with a decent reverse. Hamilton & AT both have hydraulic reverse options.

Our modern jet boats are relatively quiet now if rigged with good mufflers and hull treatments. Not like the old loud straight exhaust units of the 70's.

High or mid decks are very common in welded aluminum jet boats and any other inboard aluminum boat. In my opinion, the deck over the engines makes an ideal platform to fish from, and I would not want any outboard engines hanging off the back to get my line fouled in! In our area, you rarely see a outboard!

Bellow is the link to my personal gallery here on AAB with many pictures of my 29' twin with 500 HP supercharged 6 liter engines in it. WOT gives 60 mph with 200 gallons of gas and 12 passengers aboard. And will run in 8 inches of water!

Click here for the gallery.
---
Attachments
Three other sterndrives besides Mercury & Volvo
Three other sterndrives besides Mercury & Volvo
markh2000
Sponsor
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:34 pm
11

Re: Marine Power & Pacific Powertrain

#6

Post by markh2000 »

Here is a copy of the press release going out to all of our OEM boat builders, marine service and repair facilities and other customers we will be selling engines to.
We look forward to talking to any of you folks looking for a quality GM marine engine....
Call Doug or Spike for more information and pricing for your specific needs. 509-243-7840

Click on the attachment to make it big enough to read
Attachments
12-12-2014 Press Release
12-12-2014 Press Release
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic