Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

General boating discussion
VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#1

Post by VirtualHuck » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:28 pm

Hello,

I took out a Stanley Islander 19' dual console boat with a Yamaha F115 yesterday on the St. Lawrence river in 20 mph winds with light rain and snow. The boat handled the chop really well, and the canvas enclosure made it a fairly warm and comfortable (compared to being exposed :-) ). I'm happy with the power, and everything about the boat, so I gave them a deposit.

There are two questions that are outstanding. The boat is built by default with 3/16" 5052, but I can switch to 5083 for around a $1,000 up-charge (and will need to wait until end of July for delivery). I will use the boat in salt water maybe 2 days a year, the rest in a huge lake. I'm thinking mostly about re-sale value as my market would change from just big lake people to coastal users from Maine through New York. Any thoughts or opinions?

Also, the boat is 19'8" long. It uses 3 air chambers for flotation. The USCG rules only allow air chamber flotation if the chambers are not integral to the hull for boats under 20'. So do I just round up to 20' when I register the boat, or do I weld on a 4" tab to the swim platform or bow to make it actually 20', or do I not worry? I'm not concerned for safety as 3/16" aluminum protects the air chamber very well compared to a thin riveted aluminum boat (probably why the rules are written the way they are), but if the unthinkable happened and someone got hurt, would insurance maybe deny a claim because the flotation didn't technically pass US regulations...

The two questions maybe tie together a little, as they would be building the boat specifically for me if I chose 5083 aluminum, and I could ask them to extend the swim platforms on either side of outboard by the extra 4" and be all set...

I'm borrowing a computer, but will post more pictures of the boat that was tested (attached 2 pictures to this post), and other details about the test in case someone has interest now or the future for reference.
stanley 19 side Small.jpg
Stanley19 Front Small.jpg
The specs from a previous post I made:
The boat is a dual console Stanley Islander 19' with a Yamaha F115 outboard (Canadian manufacturer).

The Basic Specs:
-Price: About $37,000 US (Web site lists Canadian)
-Length: 19'4" (manufacturer now saying 19'8"
-Beam: 96"
-Weight: 1,725- +400ish for 115 outboard:
-Seating: 6-8
-Deadrise: 15 degree (listed as 16 degree everywhere else)
-Max HP: 150 HP (standard is 115HP, and that is what the boat I will be demoing has)
-3/16" aluminum hull and sides with 3/16" diamond plate self bailing sole/deck
-20 inch transom
-Keel Guard
-Built in 24 gal. fuel tank
-Telflex hydraulic steering system
-Bimini top with full enclosure (optional, but definitely want)

Chaps
Donator '09
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:19 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#2

Post by Chaps » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:57 am

I will defer to Kevin for what material difference the two alloy choices might mean to the life expectancy of the boat but as far as resale 99.9% of potential future buyers won't care. On the flotation issue I believe the CG regs only apply to boats built in the USA. If one decides to buy a boat built elsewhere under different regs and bring it in to the country it is meaningless to them unless you decide you want to use it for chartering or "hire" which you cannot due to rules against using foreign built boats for that purpose.
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#3

Post by VirtualHuck » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:48 pm

Thanks, that was helpful.

VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#4

Post by VirtualHuck » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:16 pm

Not sure how helpful this is as I'm not nearly as experienced as many on this forum.

If you are interested in a Stanley boat, I had a very good experience with both the dealer and the boat this past weekend. I went to demo an Islander 19, which is a welded 3/16 hull (1/4" on 21 and 23 versions) dual console bow rider with a 115HP outbaord (150HP Max). I have some picture in my first post, and will upload a few more when I get to my main computer on Monday.

The Dealer I went to is Ed Huck Marine in Rockport Ontario. They sell a wide variety of boats, and seem to be very busy. The dealership has been family owned for around 125 years and seem to be an integral part of the riverfront part of town. They have a number of large buildings, have a lot of service areas, lots of storage, and seem pretty well organized. A large part of their business comes from having a full service marina, a large number of slips on the St. Lawrence (1,000 island area), and an active store. Definitely not a fancy dealership, just a good solid seeming business. I got a full tour from a sales person (James) who was very helpful and knowledgeable. He also had taken a lot of time answering a ton of questions from me via e-mail. No issues with walking through the active service areas, and around a huge inventory of new and used boats. I think they had 5 Stanley boats there (Islander 19', Islander 23', A couple of Pulse Crafts, and a Predator). There was also a well used Stanley work boat (not sure of model) in the water, and a 24' Cabin Boat (maybe their Cruiser line) that was already sold. That boat had been customized to remove the cuddy in the front and turn it into a walk-through from the cabin into a bow rider front. It sounded like it was no issue to customize from Stanely's end.

As far as the Islander I was testing, I was most worried about the boat being a good balance of a moderate V hull for decent ride in wind chop, but also was hoping it was stable enough when moored. It was in the 30s with some rain and a few snow flakes interspersed, and around a 15-20 mph winds. The benefit of a full canvas became evident right away as we were very comfortable. They are in a fairly open part of the river, so we had some decent wind chop waves (not white caps, but close), and about 1 to 2' in size. The boat did not disappoint. It cut through the waves extremely well when trimmed down a little, but also did amazingly well at 30 mph trimmed out for decent speed. No rough pounding, it was very stable and predictable, and has a very high free board for a boat of this style and size. The deck drains overboard, and the whole package made for a very comfortable and stable feeling boat. The Yamaha F115 is stupidly quite at idle, you literally can't hear it with the canvas up. At speed, we had easy conversation, and didn't have to talk over the motor noise. I will say that the water slapping the hull was fairly noticeable, especially with the canvas up. With that being said, it wasn't particularly noisy, and you didn't have to raise your voice over it. At rest the boat felt reasonably stable, but I'll admit that we were having too much fun blasting around the chop to stop for long. In short, the boat was everything I had hoped for. Oh, and the F115 was more than enough motor for the boat (1,700 pounds without motor). I'm not saying it might make sense or be fun to go with a 150hp, but far from being a requirement. We had 3 people with a combined weight of around 550 pounds, and a full tank of gas. Nothing to speak of for gear, but it got up on plane really quickly, was at a nice rpm at cruise, and had a lot of extra when you needed it. I usually go bigger with everything I get, but I am staying with the 115 and have no worries about it being undersized for the boat.

As far as build quality, I'm not knowledgeable enough to give reliable information, but this was my take.... The welds all looked structurally good, but fairly utilitarian. My best description is that the welds weren't perfectly consistent "stacks of dimes", but were a little beefier and not totally consistent in spacing. I didn't take a picture, but I noticed that on the bow eye, there was a little gap without a weld at the top, so there was a complete perimeter weld, but it was missing maybe a 1/32" gap that would have closed the weld. They also had a number of places where they had 5" of weld followed by nothing for a foot, then another 5" of weld. I hope some of the pictures I post will show what I mean with all of this. I definitely didn't feel like anything was lacking in strength, it just wasn't a work of art either. I have a good friend who is a top-notch aluminum welder, so I'm going to have him go through and see if there is any touch up that makes sense for him to do after I pick up the boat. I also have some customization work that I want to do, and will post pictures when he is done.

I forgot to mention in the boat description, but the boat has really solid latches on the compartments under the bow seats, a good size anchor locker, and the entire rear transom seat flips up, adding a huge amount of storage (battery in there too).

If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to post something here or send me a personal message. Again, I hope to post pictures tomorrow.

VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#5

Post by VirtualHuck » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:06 pm

Pictures (heavily reduced file sizes, let me know if you want more detail on any shot):
20160407_114439-01.jpg
Weld Gaps
20160407_120939-01.jpg
Transom- Does the motor seem too low?
20160407_120945-01.jpg
Transom- Does the motor seem too low?
IMG_2441-01.jpg
Dash
IMG_2442-01.jpg
Dash
IMG_2450-01.jpg
Floor welds, and seat is welded (assuming airtight compartment below, so no bolts? Partial welds so it dries, or just not needed, or should have been done?
IMG_2452-01.jpg
More weld examples
IMG_2461-01.jpg
More weld examples
IMG_2476-01.jpg
Profile
IMG_2477-01.jpg
Head On

OTHER BOATS:
24' Footer:
20160407_121155-01.jpg
20160407_121314-01.jpg
20160407_121334-01.jpg
IMG_2478-01.jpg
IMG_2488-01.jpg
Fire Boat:
20160407_121053-01.jpg
20160407_121104-01.jpg
Landing Craft:
20160407_121742-01.jpg
20160407_121753-01.jpg
20160407_121806-01.jpg

Wantry
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:44 pm
Location: Oneida Lake, NY

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#6

Post by Wantry » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:28 pm

Thanks! Very helpful post. Lotta good info. Those welds look just like the other Stanleys I've been aboard. Not beauteous, but functional.

I don't know everything to answer your questions (or anything else) but i have a few ideas.

Correct motor height is from relationship of the cavitation plate to the bottom of the hull. Can't tell from the photos how that one sits.

Partial welds are used where the fabricator doesn't want an airtight space. Reasons could include drainage, making the job easier, or avoiding distortion of the weld area. The dash looks just like the Pulsecraft I've been aboard (24'). On Lac St. Pierre, our guides stand atop the dash so they can heave to a couple miles from the sinkbox (over the horizon from the hunters' and ducks' line of sight) and still have enough elevation to watch the action through binoculars.

I've been aboard a plate boat with airtight chambers that was holed through the bottom under one of the chambers. We didn't sink. Didn't even know we were taking water until we put it back on the trailer. It was patched up and back in service shortly thereafter.

A little more perspective on the 115 and how much it will push ... We run them on hulls that weigh (list) 1300 lb. Duck blinds and rigging est. 200. Four guys in waders and lotsa clothes, with each man's personal equipment and guns, 850 (and that's charitably assuming the size of the guys). Two batteries 100. Two dogs 120. Decoys and decoy anchors est. 400. Safety equipment, anchors and lines, etc. -- dunno. Let's assume your boat and mine carry the same stuff in that regard, and call it 100 lb. 27 gals. gas about 165 lb. I think the o/b itself is like 375?

Round it off that's about 3500 lb. and the 115 pushes that load acceptably. Develops full rpm or close to it, planes willingly, keeps the head up in the rough, no trouble modulating RPM to control the angle of attack. Add another couple hundred pounds (such as ice frozen to the sides and deck) and the 115 runs out of breath, starts to lug the motor and drag down RPM and throttle response --- but in all situations short of that it's OK. From what you're describing you'll have a heavier hull but not be carrying near as much equipment/rigging. Something to think about.

What size was the Predator (you might have answered both these qu's already, sorry) and what did the price tag on it say?

VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#7

Post by VirtualHuck » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:23 pm

I think the Predator was 20' and $26,000 USD w/ 90HP Yamaha ready to go (gas, and outfitting). You can see what they have in inventory with this link (generally keep it current from my understanding) http://marina.ca/boats/?make=stanley. I like the dual console (very different from the Islander I'm getting) and at $22,000 USD, it seems like a pretty good deal. The boat reminds me a lot of Jarek Kanios' twin console design, (http://www.conradyachts.com/7_tuna16TC.html).

As a general note of interest, outboards made for Canada have different serial numbers than the US. Yamaha's computers don't talk to each other, so their Warranty won't cross the border. I verified with a call to Yamaha because that didn't sound right, but it is in fact true. I ended up buying my boat without the motor and will get my local shop to buy and install a F115. It will end up costing me about $300 - $500, but better than driving 4 or 5 hours to drop off my boat for warranty, then needing to drive back another time if it can't be done right away...

Thanks Wantry for your feedback. We will rarely be over 3,000 pounds, so you helped solidify my decision to stay with the 115.

I'm confident that the 20" shaft is the correct length (hull bottom to mounting plate), I'm just thinking the bulk of the motor is sitting really close to the water. If the transom plate was extended up 5", then it could take a 25" shaft (but maybe move the center of gravity too high?), and have a little more breathing room for the motor when you get hit from behind with a wave... I'm sure it's fine, just looks a little close to the water.

While I've had a variety of used and small NON ALLOY bow riders, and still have a variety of small riveted aluminum boats, This is my first "significant" boat purchase and I'm ridiculously excited :-)!

Fisherman
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#8

Post by Fisherman » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:43 pm

Not sure if your boat will have a walk-through dash like shown or not, but if it does, you may want that area to have a door or something to block wind when traveling 30 kts in 30* weather. That can make a huge difference in comfort. Speaking from experience.

Fisherman
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#9

Post by Fisherman » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:46 pm

Also, not sure how you plan to use the boat. If you plan to use it for fishing, trolling particually, my 20' boat has the side windows chopped short so I can mount a rod holder there. I can drive and real my line in/let it out at the same time. A lot of boats either the captain cannot fish or else has to reach way behind their seat.

But...perhaps this is not a big deal for most people for the way they use their boats.

Fisherman
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#10

Post by Fisherman » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:00 pm

Here's a photo...only not running a rod out the side at the time...
Attachments
IMG_2087.JPG

Wantry
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:44 pm
Location: Oneida Lake, NY

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#11

Post by Wantry » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:40 am

What Fisherman said, about trolling config and wind-break forward on a DC boat. Even some kind of canvas curtain or dodger will go a long way.

I agree that motor "looks" like the powerhead sits low to the water. I've had waves break right over the cowl going slow or beaching in a big following sea and the motor keeps running fine, but it makes me nervous. And mine sits higher above the water at rest than what your pics seem to show.

An alternative to an XL shaft might be a 20" with a jack plate. Lot more mounting and performance options. BUT check with the builder to see if they recommend this on your hull. Even with minimal setback (4" or 6"), a 115 at 6" WOT puts a lot more leverage on the transom than the same motor at standard height.

Incidentally when you buy your motor spend some time talking with your dealer to select a prop specific to your application. For carrying the heavy load we've had good results with 17 P props with a fair amount of rake and cup, either Yamaha's p/n 688-45930-02-00 or Powertech's RED-3.

VirtualHuck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Re: Aluminum Type and Flotation Question

#12

Post by VirtualHuck » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:28 pm

Thanks again for all the great suggestions and input. I did order a snap-in canvas square for under the center windshield. I'll probably weld up an aluminum door once I lose the canvas piece :-).

The prop recommended by the dealer is a 13.25" diameter, 17 degree pitch (3 blades). I have no idea of rake and cup, but it is part number 6E5-45945-01-00. An online search didn't give me much more than the basic specs. Based on my test ride, it should be close enough that it will be a good backup if my testing after motor break-in shows I need to get a new prop with different specs.

Dumb side thing, but I'm now scrambling to adapt my trailer to fit the boat. I would hate to drive 5 hours and find out the boat doesn't fit well enough to get it home. Stanley gave me a scaled profile view that I was able to overlay in my CAD program with my trailer drawing, and should be able to get the trailer really close before picking up the boat...

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