New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

General boating discussion
AKFISHRIPPER
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New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#1

Post by AKFISHRIPPER »

Name is Chris I'm new to the forum but not necessarily new to boating. I'm an Air National Guard C-130 & C-17 mechanic by trade and own a small engine/trailer repair business on the side.

I'm putting together a plan to build my first aluminum boat. I have the welder, garage space, and a place to CNC lazer cut me the parts. I've decided to build a flat bottom "Dory" style boat in the 17-18' range with 30-36" sides but I'm having a really hard time finding plans for that exact size range. There are a ton of 20-24' plans that I guess I could always reduce in size but I thought I'd try here first and see if anyone had some insight.

The reason I'm choosing a dory style boat is due to the type of fishing I do. 90% of the time it will be launched by truck from the beach which is less than a foot deep for about 100 yards at low tide, ease of build for a first time project, and proven sea worthyness in comparable conditions such as the Oregon coast.

Thanks in advance guys
AKFISHRIPPER
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#2

Post by AKFISHRIPPER »

This is the exact one I want to build but he only has plans for wood, I sent an email but they could not provide aluminum plans. I'm assuming I could use the same measurements for the most part but the thickness of the wood may throw things off a little

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/workboat/littlehunk.html
Last edited by AKFISHRIPPER on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chaps
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#3

Post by Chaps »

calling K. Morin, APB
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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please view and like: https://www.facebook.com/bottompainting/
kmorin
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guy from Alaska..terminology of small boats?

#4

Post by kmorin »

AK fish ripper Chris,
welcome to the AAB.com forum as a poster, glad you've taken time to present a new build project thread. About my favorite type of thread here on the Forum, been distracted by my pc for while so I'm late in replying with my mistake-informed opinions on skiff building.

In my terminology; dory is a form of hull. I rely, mostly on historic writers like H. Chapelle ( http://www.pdfsdocuments.com/howard-cha ... -craft.pdf ) and J. Gardener ( ) for the discussion that more or less influences my terminology.

I guess the word skiff is as over used as dory but the difference to me is the overall shape. A dory's chines taper, in the Plan View, from the master station as they run aft to the transom and a skiff's chines are more or less parallel. The difference is the latter will plane the former won't and that separates the two shapes' performance, and to me; their names or labels.

I use the term skiff for the welded metal boats shorter in length than 24-(might stretch to 26' LOA) where the chines are parallel; most often to one another AND the keel in Plan and mostly in Profile as well. So in my view, flat bottom skiffs that are built along the Oregon shore- especially at or near Pacific City and are called dories- aren't dory shaped- so I refer to them as "skiffs".

The four panel skiff you show (Glen-L link) has parallel chines so I'll refer to it by its shape naming method referencing Chapelle and Gardener. (To really confuse things Gardener and many other historians and designers show "semi-dories" too! Totally confusing until you focus on the shape and let that guide the terms.)

The plans you show can be built using the plywood skiff lines- but the plans particulars would not be very helpful. The larger, longer and wider skiffs in this series from the Glen-L catalog can be used too. Say you looked at a 24' long skiff with a 6' or even 7' wide chine? This skiff can be simply shortened by just 'chopping off' the skiff's last frame or two. The result will be a wide bottom skiff that is shorter LOA than originally planned but will perform fine for beach launching and landing.

Framing cannot be inferred very well from the plywood models' plans sets. Metal framing is not logically or practically like wood framing even though many home builders have copied wooden boat planned framing and gotten by functionally. That implies that a lot of the plans package you purchase will need to be rethought to use metal and welding guide your redesign of these parts of the skiff.

Lots of design decisions to make.

As to the use of a flat bottom skiff for beach work, small deadrise angle V bottom skiffs will perform well in a foot of water and so will cupped or cambered bottom shapes both of which have some advantages in your boating use descriptions but may not be worth the work they both imply? A flat bottom skiff like the one in you link could have the bottom modified without much change to build with a camber/cup/small radius in Body Plan but there is added labor and planning required.

NC cutting files for this model skiff are not widely available that I've ever heard or seen. The reason is that most people want a V bottom skiff in this LOA range so no one has taken time to design/draw/develop/output/nest a set of a flat bottom skiff cut files. If you're not up to speed on 3D modeling and developed surfaces in the marine software environments (?) you'll have to get someone to do that work for you to drive an NC table.

On a skiff this size- laying out and cutting the four panels is not much work (for an experienced metal worker/skiff builder) but if you're not familiar with layout grids, expanding or scaling curves using battens and the sawing, fairing and prepping long seams- I can understand the appeal of an NC solution to this stage of the build's required work. Given the market for this skiff's plans; I'll guess you'll have two sets of "costs" to compare in your evaluation?

Since there aren't any outline/profile/cut files for this skiff (that I'm aware) you can hire those software files from someone who takes the Glen-L plans (you purchase) and does a "loft and take off"- developing those cut files (#1 cost$). Or do the work yourself to model the shape in scale and do a "hand loft and take off" then cut them from your own layout- (#2 cost$). Not sure what you'll assign as your wage in this comparison but that is the way I'd say you'll have to make the comparison.

Skiff skills evaluation: if your airframe work includes a sheet metal/skin certification where you are experienced enough to go from raw sheet metal to "riveted on" aircraft skin panels (?) THEN you have the skills to re-apply to do the layout and draw/cut/fit/finish the sheet cuts for the skiff build. If not- if your work is focused on wrench work- not metal work (? no idea on my part) then you may elect to hire the cut file conversion for whatever design you choose to build?

Planning-wise you're best guided by the sheet widths available. 5', 6', (7'-???) and even 8' wide sheets are available from Seattle so the chine BOA would be most economical in those widths. Sides' materials of this class of skiff, depending on flam, will come from nesting in a 7'-8' wide sheet or easier from my view point out of two 4' wide sheets. This accommodates 'developed' surface of the topsides " J " when viewed as the panel outline on the sheet for a 3' tall side.

Last remark is that whatever you choose to build- a paper or plywood model of the skiff will be worth all the time you take to build it. The reasons won't show up well until you're done with the model and begin working in the real sized skiff but I'd say that step was very helpful to new builders.

Happy to help if I can? Good luck, Welcome aboard the AAB.com Forum and please feel free to explore any questions that you think we can help answer? I've built a few skiffs including a few flat bottom ones, so at least I'd hope to steer you around some of the millions of mistakes I remember making?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#5

Post by AKFISHRIPPER »

Thanks a lot for the very detailed response. I ended up ordering the Glen-I 18' Little Hunk power dory.

I've been doing some intense research on boat building including design, techniques, jigs, and performance.

I've attached pictures of my proposed conversion from wood to aluminum construction with materials and prices quoted locally. Materials ended up being right at $3k which is right where I wanted to be.

I plan on building my jig this coming weekend put of lumber. Gonna build it on steel casters with adjustable pillars to keep things straight so I can roll it in and out of my shed between other projects.

Pics to come....
Attachments
20170306_124709.jpg
20170306_124700.jpg
kmorin
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#6

Post by kmorin »

AKfish, not sure I was able to understand the images? It seems you're planning to build a building form using wood? but beyond that I couldn't get the clear pic of what's happening?

good luck; we always welcome pics of a build and enjoy following welded skiffs as they go from stock to boat.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#7

Post by Sobie2 »

You can't go wrong with buying a set of aluminum skiff plans with cutting files and having a shop cut out the aluminum. My friend has done this a few times and it is really the way to go. His next one he will have the boat trailer delivered to the cutout shop and they will load all the cut aluminum up and deliver it to the barge for him.

Sobie2
kmorin
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Re: New guy from Alaska...introduction along with a question of course

#8

Post by kmorin »

sobie2, the only problem in the current market is the limited number of boat designs available for NC cutting. As time goes on and more home or one-off builders pay to have additional designs converted from wood OR drawn in metal from scratch; a wider selection will become available.

For now, there's a pretty limited number of designs offered in NC file forms. As long as a builder will accept the shapes he can find already to buy a as kits or cut files- things are smooth- as they were for your friend. Otherwise- can be expensive to be the first customer for an NC file set.

The work of cutting the 3 curves on this shape are fairly low in hours- much less than the layout time to get a clean curved marked to make those three curve cuts. Depending on the framing methods decided on the boat (?) there is not all that much gain when the body sections are lines instead of curves. The same hull, with a V bottom, may return a labor savings if there were more than three long curves and flat outline xverse frames?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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