My Brakes again

Truck and Trailer discussion
AlloyToy
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My Brakes again

#1

Post by AlloyToy »

Can't figure this out. Why do I have to keep bleeding my trailer brakes? Sits in the driveway...no leaks & reservoir stays full. Remove and look at the wheels no fluid leakage is visible..... Replaced the seal on the tongue actuator (seal under the nut).....

I'll bleed them, they'll work fine for 4-5 tows then go spongy again :hammer:


Can't figure this out and it's starting to bug me :mrgreen:
Chaps
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Re: My Brakes again

#2

Post by Chaps »

You haven't heard about the latest kid's craze of snorting brake fluid? You gotta lock that stuff up man!

Actually, I find trailer brakes so frustrating I'm at the point I just rip them out and put a fixed coupler on the tongue. If my F350 can't stop it in time I'm driving too fast . . .
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#3

Post by AlloyToy »

I'm almost at that point :mrgreen:

Brake Fluid Huffers :mrgreen:
Occams Razor
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Re: My Brakes again

#4

Post by Occams Razor »

Alloy:

About your brakes.....you that they get spongy... How the hell can you tell the trailer brakes are spongy ?

If air is in the system you should just be bottoming the actuator. If you have a leak the same will happen.

If you cannot find a leak I suggest you check the boots on the caliper pistons, you may find where the fluid is going

Caliper pistons can pit and leak fluid past the seal.

Trailer brakes usually bleed very easily with the actuator being the highest point , the caliper can be gravity bleed

easily. Fill the actuator and go open the bleeder on the caliper furest from the actuator and leave open until

fluid flows without bubbles. Then go to the next furest away and so on. After that if you sill get air I would say you

have a pretty good leak.
Occams Razor
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Re: My Brakes again

#5

Post by Occams Razor »

Alloy:

Another thing I highly recommend....is to pull your trailer coupler all the way out after you park your trailer. This

positions the actuator piston in a full retracted position as it should be.

Remember brake fluid is a hydroscopic fuid. It easly absorbes water as it should. Your brake fluid should be flushed

once a year on a trailer.
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#6

Post by 21ftcc »

Alloy,

well I was hoping we got this problem. What you have is brake fade, which is the reduction in stopping power that can occur after repeated or sustained application of the brakes, especially in high load or high speed conditions. Brake fade is caused by a buildup of heat in the braking surfaces and the subsequent changes and reactions in the brake system components and can be experienced with both drum brakes and disc brakes. Loss of stopping power, or fade, can be caused by friction fade, mechanical fade, or fluid fade.
Take a look at this link here and see if this makes since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade ... ing_brakes

You could try and change to turbine cooled brakes. Company is in west bridgewater.
http://www.doubleeusa.com/brakes.htm
Last edited by 21ftcc on Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IN2DEEP
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Re: My Brakes again

#7

Post by IN2DEEP »

Maybe it's time for a new master cylinder :banghead:

Even though you changed the suspect seal, the surface may have some scoring or pits that a new seal won't help
I don't know what a trailer MC is like, but on automobiles, they can develop internal leaks (pedal goes to the floor) that are not visible on the outside :scuba:

Scott
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AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#8

Post by AlloyToy »

Thanks guys...I have some homework to do.....again :banghead: By spongy I mean they will start to apply then "SLAM" the coupler bottoms out as I stop. I go to take off and "POW" you can feel it again in the reverse direction.......

Fluid level has not dropped so I'm really not sure......

The good news is it will be 80 this weekend so it will be nice to mess around with it.......
clambo
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Re: My Brakes again

#9

Post by clambo »

I bought my boat from a commercial guy and he told me they siezed on him and he ripped them out. Never used them andhave had no problems, :thumbsup:
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#10

Post by 21ftcc »

My brake coupler makes a loud clunking noise every time I stop and my brakes are not effective.

CAUSE: Brakes are extremely out of adjustment - When brakes are in proper adjustment, the wheel cylinder push rod only travels a very short distance to engage the shoes to the hub drum. When the brakes are out of adjustment, the push rod must travel further requiring more wheel cylinder travel and therefore more hydraulic output from the master cylinder. When the master cylinder reaches its maximum hydraulic output capability, it travels to its maximum during every stop, resulting in the clunking of the brake coupler.
CORRECTION: Adjust brakes. (The clunk is a good warning sign that you need to adjust brakes).

MAINTENANCE
1. Repack hub drums annually and check for grease leaking on brake shoes. Wash brake pads with brake cleaner if necessary.
2. Check shoes and adjust brakes annually or every 3000 to 5000 miles.
3. Lubricate moving parts of brake coupler annually.
4. Check fluid level before every use. If fluid level gets low, check for leaks at tubing connections and wheel or master cylinder.

http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/B ... brakes.htm
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AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#11

Post by AlloyToy »

Thanks Jason for all the help :thumbsup:
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JETTYWOLF
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Re: My Brakes again

#12

Post by JETTYWOLF »

Get a bigger Truck and get rid of the basterds!!!!!!!!!!
I have no brakes and never have.

It's not part of the Low Maintenance program I was looking for.

F-250 is my brakes.
AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#13

Post by AlloyToy »

New truck just isn't in the budget....so I need brakes for now......

Bled the brakes....air again :banghead: How would I keep getting air in the brakes or is it still air that was never purged out!!!


One more time now......
trouty
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Re: My Brakes again

#14

Post by trouty »

Rookie mistakes.

If you have air in the system, then the actuator master cylinder is probably pitted and destroying the rubber cups on the plunger.

Probably the first part of the master cylinder on the actuator where the brakes 'normally' depress too is fine but behind that where the cups don't normally travel builds up with any water in the system and pits the alloy. Not a problem normally coz the rubber cups don't usually run that far back.

However, as the brakes wear and the cups travel further they get to the crud /pitted corroded part of the cylinder and allow the plunger to completely bottom out - bypassing a lot of fluid - as you take off and the cups travel back past all the crud/pitting and corrosion they entrain air and hey presto you have spongy brakes.

Solution.

New actuator master cylinder and re bleed the brakes.

Get yourself a set of "self bleed nipples" and the job is much easier & quicker.

http://www.speedbleeder.com/size.htm

When bleeding brakes and pumping the pedal to get a solid pedal, try and resist the temptation to push the pedal all the way to the floor and back up - this only pushes those rubber cups into parts of the cylinder they don't normally travel, past the gunk, corrosion & pitting and risks destroying them. (Same with the trailer master cylinder actuator)

When you swap out disc pads etc try and remember to just use short pedal strokes (lots of them) to get a hard pedal and you won't be rebuilding / replacing master cylinders as frequently.

That's my best guess at your problem, if I'm wrong someone else feel free to correct me.

Cheers
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welder
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Re: My Brakes again

#15

Post by welder »

Get a hand Vacuum pump [ I got mine from the Snap-On man at work , $100.oo bill ] pull a Vac on the wheel cyl. nipple crack open the Fitting and keep pulling a Vac. tighten the fitting [ Top off res. ] and move on.

I can do my breaks , By myself, it less than 10 minutes .
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AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#16

Post by AlloyToy »

I'll check them out Les,
Thanks
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#17

Post by 21ftcc »

Make sure your not draining your reservoir while your bleeding the lines, its just more air to push out. Have someone fill it while you bleed them.
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trouty
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Re: My Brakes again

#18

Post by trouty »

hey 21ft CC,

Why the long face? (in your avatar!). :clap: :clap:

Cheers
AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#19

Post by AlloyToy »

He's having fun planning a wedding.......nuff said :mrgreen:

I'm beginning to think Jason that one of many that helped me bleed my brakes at one time or another may have forgot about the fluid level and didn't want to tell me :mrgreen: I'm looking into the bleeder that welder mentioned above.....
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#20

Post by 21ftcc »

Maybe they were more worried about there beverage fluid level??

Oh yeah wedding stuff... I need to just hide out Tillies for like a week. Please just drill a hole in my head it will be less painful.
I have my better half's shower this weekend and then almost 2 months until my funeral. Plus we still have no honeymoon plans. We were thinking San Diego or a cruise.

Alloy I will be happy to come fill your brake fluid up if you come and fish my frozen steering cable out. :thumbsup:
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#21

Post by 21ftcc »

http://www.championtrailers.com/techsup.html

Take a read at this link.

As you pump brake fluid into the system, you will begin to see it arrive at the fluid receiving container. (CAUTION - Never let the reservoir fall below 1/2 full during the bleeding process) If the fluid gets too low and sucks air down into the piston of the master cylinder, you must start over and the new air just sucked in and all brake fluid already in the system will need to be purged out. As you pump fluid thru the system, the bubbles you have been seeing in the fluid receiving container will cease. This indicates that you have completely filled the system with brake fluid.
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AlloyToy
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Re: My Brakes again

#22

Post by AlloyToy »

21ftcc wrote:Maybe they were more worried about there beverage fluid level??
That's what I was thinking......Hmmmmm reach into the cooler or keep the fluid full for Alloy :rotfl:



21ftcc wrote: Alloy I will be happy to come fill your brake fluid up if you come and fish my frozen steering cable out. :thumbsup:


Sorry to inform you 21ftcc but you will no longer need your boat :rotfl:

All kidding aside.....take the grease fitting out and use an oil can and pump transmission fluid or light hydraulic oil into the hole while someone works the cable back and forth....is it a hardened grease/saltwater lock?? It's messy but has worked for me in the past.....a used Johnson/Evinrude guy from FLA taught me that trick.....
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21ftcc
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Re: My Brakes again

#23

Post by 21ftcc »

The cable has been sticking for the past three years and was greased to hell and back. I will invest in a new cable and helm.
Its almost out just need to get pass one tight turn and small hole.

My boat will be needed for a few years. It will be the kids play pen. :banghead:
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