Thomas Garvey

A Place to Show and Tell
Gunner45
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Thomas Garvey

#1

Post by Gunner45 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:05 am

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Well here it goes. here is photos of my Alloy Boat

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#2

Post by Gunner45 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:13 am

It is a 23' Thomas Marine Garvey built in 1980.

Does anyone know the Max HP rating? It came with a 225 Merc?

Also does anyone know which alloy Thomas Marine used? I assuming 5052 plate and 6061 "tee" extrusions?

Thanks, I have learned alot from this forum.
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welderbob
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#3

Post by welderbob » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:10 pm

The hull is most likely 5086 x .190 thick. with out looking inside there is either 2x2 1/4" tees or flat bar.Some earlier models had flat bar.

A 225hp is probably a lot of ponies for that boat.

Not sure what you have planned. Do you know how to weld aluminum/ have a spool gun? The wood deck need to come out. you may find some cracked welded, mostly on the starboard side forward if it was run hard in the Great South Bay chop.
i would gut the boat ,flip it over and sand blast,coat of epoxy prime and maybe some coal tar epoxy over that ,than some bottom paint.
Nice winter project,

welderbob

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#4

Post by Gunner45 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:23 pm

Thank You welderbob,
There is a hole in the side measures .200 so I believe you are correct .190 thick. Which rod and material would you use to do I repair 5086 with? I have the Tees for reinforcement.
I agree 225hp seems too much for the boat, I think a previous owner may have clammed where you are not suppose to clam.
I plan to strip it, repair it, put a center console, aluminum deck, for recreational use.
I am a welder mainly earthmoving equipment, mainly steel, I can weld aluminum, I have a millermatic 251 and a spoolmatic 30A, I just have to think before I weld aluminum. Advise deeply appreciated.
You are amazingly correct most of the cracks and damage is on the starboard forward!
I have never heard of “coal tar epoxy”. I thought I would epoxy prime and Imron flat.
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welderbob
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#5

Post by welderbob » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:22 pm

The miller 251 w/ spool gun will do a nice job. You'll need 5356 with straight argon. Any time you want to stop by, happy to help.

welderbob

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#6

Post by Gunner45 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:51 am

Thank you again welderbob, I will try the 5356, I may take you up on the stopping by.
Bill
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welderbob
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#7

Post by welderbob » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:06 pm

Hi Bill,

many ways to fix up the deck. For material I'd use .190 5052 sheet. You can do the math but its 2.7/ sq/ft and today 60" wide sheets were $1.80/ lb. You will need some frame work under the sheet. I like 2x2x 1/4" tee's,could go a little lighter or use some flat stock. I'd put the new frames inter-coastal (welded to the sheet) and either plug weld the sheet to the existing frames or screw down w/ 1/4-20 Flat heads.
Lots of sanding to do and a good pressure washer job is needed.

Welderbob

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#8

Post by Gunner45 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:08 pm

More photos of wood removal, I read forums alot, this is my first time posting if I am doing anything wrong let me know
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Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#9

Post by Gunner45 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:01 pm

Well, the floor is out and power washed, I still have some wood on the sides to remove and screws to remove.

WelderBob is not too far from me and invited me to stop by and I did. I was very impressed with the work going on in his shop. He is truly a craftsman and a great guy. Willing to share his knowledge with me.

Thanks again
Gunner45
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Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#10

Post by Gunner45 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:38 am

Well all wood is off, power washed and I have some “issues” with cracks. Repairs to be made, some “repairs” have to be repaired. Sending it to planning and engineering, Oh wait that’s me also. I am thinking a center console, a deck bolted in and some foam on the sides for floatation.
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Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#11

Post by Gunner45 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:29 am

I have been busy with my real job not too much going on. I did remove the inner rub rail; it is a split aluminum pipe was bolted. I was a good fit but it was full of sand. You can see the original magic marker lines that Thomas Marine used.
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Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#12

Post by Gunner45 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:04 pm

I am back again and I have painted all the cracks orange to try to analyze stress. The starboard front has damage from hitting things in the water as there is damage to the hull, and as predicted by Welderbob by our local waters and the prevailing wind. All structure in the chine’s are ALL cracked. Not the “skin” there are no leaks in the chine’s. As you can see where the verticals meet the ribs are all cracked. I am thinking adding a center stringer and 2 more stringers between the center and the chine’s to remove the boat twisting motion. What do you think?
(Sorry if I am not calling the boat by its correct name, you can correct me so I can learn)
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Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#13

Post by Gunner45 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:05 am

The next step is to get boat in the shop, first I have to fix trailer. First picture is the trailer how I received with “telephone pole bunks”. New hubs, bearings, brackets ect. I know its not Aluminum, its part of the project. If I should not include trailer let me know.

Question : I am going to order some material soon and some suppliers do not handle marine grade Aluminum. I am located in the New York where is a marine grade aluminum supplier you are happy with?
Please let me know.

Thank You
Bill
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welderbob
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#14

Post by welderbob » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:21 am

Hi Bill,

Yarde Metals delivers here on Long Island. The deck can be 5052 H32 x .190. If you need to replace some bottom plate than your looking for 5086 H 116. If you need some smaller piece of 5086 I'm sure we can find the pieces you'll need here in the shop.
Yarde Metals 631-232-1600 ask for Jeff, Feel free to call me if you have any questions.

welderbob

kmorin
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#15

Post by kmorin » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:05 pm

Gunner the idea to paint the cracks did give me a good view of the overall weld or structural failures and I'd like to make some remarks.

First, my view is the boat has inadequate torsional framing. I'm not discussing the side to side (tranverse) ribs alone or the longs (longitudinals) running fore and aft by themselves. I'm suggesting that the quartering load the boat has seen has stressed the frame of the hull as a warp from Starboard Bow across to the Port Stern- a quartering sea or torsion loading condition.

I suggest that when the joints are rebuilt, cut out and re welded then 'fish plated' or doubled with another equal thickness plate lapping the joint but not welded fully top and bottom... that the sheer clamp or guard deck be tied to the vertical ribs with added structural members.

The idea is to weld, not tack weld the inner guard deck liner or extrusion piece to the flat sheer clamp or guard deck. This liner or 'edge bead' should be welded continuously to the flat plate/sheer clamp/guard deck as that member is continuously welded to the topsides upper most edge.

The inner liner/extrusion/bead along the sheer clamp should be attached to the vertical transverse frame member with at least a 1" pipe (1-3/6" -1-/14" OD 6061-T6 extrusion) by welding (TIG is vastly more useful in these welds) top and bottom. The bottom joint should be sliced and slid onto the vertical bar frame uprights and the sides (four) of these 'slit joints' be welded for at least on diameter of the pipe size.

What will this do that was not apparently done before? Look at the a single triangular box beam that is the same shape as the sheer in Plan View and as deep (60 to 70% as deep) as the topsides. That is ignore the bottom framing and simply view the topsides ONCE TRIANGULATED with the side, the sheer clamp/guard deck/ the inner extrusion and the strut tying the inner edge of the sheer clamp to the topsides vertical frame... as a triangular box beam.

this Tuning Fork shape makes the topsides of the entire boat into a MUCH more rigid beam and that beam is much less subject to torsion deflection.

IN the past, if I understand the photos, and that is a BIG if....???? it appear to me the guard deck was not tied to the side ribs? So if the boat had a load on deck the sides could allow the sheer to 'bend up' a little when the quartering bow was in a swell face and that allowed the entire boat to 'flex' bow to stern- crosswise or in torsion.

Of course I'm only looking at your photos but the orange paint is a very good idea an indicates to me this is a torsional deflection series of joint failures.

By stiffening/triangulating the sides to resist torsional loading flexure, repairing the failed joints and cleaning her up I think she'd give longer service in the future compared to how she's lasted in the past?

It looks like someone has gone to the effort of spraying a primer (zinc primer is often that light greenish color) in the bilge that implies someone etched her or blasted her bilges and those are good signs of care in my view.

Interested in hearing how your rebuild works,

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#16

Post by Gunner45 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:47 am

Thank You Kevin for your reply. You must be an engineer because I had to talk to someone to translate some of your post to me. You have raised many good points. I have been working on the trailer to get the boat inside, and I would like to sandblast it before I bring it in, weather permitting.

Bill V

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Re: Thomas Garvey

#17

Post by kmorin » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:06 pm

Gunner, I apologize if the terms were not clear and required 'translation'. When you're discussing tech (structural) topic it's easier to just use the terms and wording in that field; I should have given a little more effort to using more widely used terms and correlated them to the boat's condition.

Glad you found someone to help understand the ideas I was trying to suggest, and I hope the project continues to go well for you. I'm not an engineer but I've been working with them for so long, and designing and building welded aluminum boats since the 1970's; I guess some of their concepts and terms have rubbed off?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Gunner45
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#18

Post by Gunner45 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:58 pm

Kevin
Thank You for taking time to respond to my project. You must be a Maritime Engineer, because I had to bring your email to a few of my friends to explain it to me. And I still have questions.
I understand “boxing” the frameworks to reduce torsional flex that is my intent.
I plan to fishplate joints when rebuilding them.
I am not sure where you suggest to put the 1” pipe.
I understand triangulation framing.
I know what a tuning fork is, but I am not sure what you mean in boat shape.
Maybe draw me a picture?

I am still working on the trailer.
I have received advice to bead blast aluminum not sand blast because sand will embed itself in the soft aluminum. Do you think this is true?
Thank You Again
Bill

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Re: Thomas Garvey

#19

Post by kmorin » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:35 pm

Gunner45, I'll try to make an illustration of the tuning fork idea but in the meantime I have already done some of the needed illustrations so I'll just post them here again.

Image

Some time ago we were discussing small skiff (1/2 the size of your Garvey) construction details and I made this illustration to show how I'd done several boats.

The remarks I've made about your boat could be correlated to this set of images. First, at the inside of the horizontal plate welded to the sheer of your boat, a plate I call the guard deck OR sheer clamp (from a similar term in dead plant boat building tradition) some times also called the 'walk-around plate or deck' , I show a slit 1" pipe, it could be larger diameter in your boat but 1" will work. This piece creates a 'flange' or edge stiffening element in the final as welded shape and that makes the guard deck's inner edge into a much more rigid shape.

By stiffening this edge of the horizontal plate, its shape is much more stiff when you look down (Plan View) on your boat's gunwale/topsides shape/sheer line. IF this plate is rigid, the boat will not flex inward and outward, but... if this inner edge could wrinkle curling up or down then the outside shape (as viewed looking down -Plan View) will also be able to flex and that will allow the boat's sides to move in and out.

So stiffening this edge is critical to overall boat stiffness, and in your boat one of the ways this has been done is by adding vertical side ribs that are part of overall transverse frames. There is a (supposed to be) very strong joint at the chine where the side rib meets the transverse bottom frame and those joints help make the sides rigid when viewed from the top (Plan View).

What I'm advocating is to ADD pipe struts from the 1" horizontal liner pipe down at an angle to the edges of the existing vertical side ribs. This will form the triangular 'box' beam even though maybe I should have said "web sided beam". IF this 'beam' that is implied here is calculated for strength as a 'beam'; then both the shape of this cross section (roughly triangular) combined with its vertical measurement (depth) contribute to the stiffness or strength- long wise.

Next, this 'web sided beam' added TOO the topsides sheet metal forms a huge C channel of the topsides plate with the bottom as one flange and the web sided strut formed 'box beam' of the guard deck as its upper flanged edge.

So in terms of overall open hull shape stiffness in a longitudinal direction- adding these struts to the topsides will increase your boat's original strength of shape, with almost the same materials by a great deal over the framing system you show in your photographs where the inner edge of the guard deck could deflect/bend/twist/wrinkle/curl up and down due to torsional loading of the entire boat.

I'll try to get up an image of the implications for torsion next. Hope this helps? I hadn't intended the remarks to be unclear so I'll hope these work to clear up some previous references? Section Modulus as it depends on open shape boundary edge deflection is not all that easy to simplify so we may have to go around a few times? Stick with me!

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin

Penbay
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#20

Post by Penbay » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:08 pm

does anyone know where I could find one of these boats for sale? Is Thomas marine still in business?
Thanks

welderbob
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#21

Post by welderbob » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:49 am

Tom retired in 2003. The early models of these Garvey"s are now about 40 years old. They started out as a cheap durable boat for the local clam diggers. Most had 3/16 bottoms and wooden deck to keep the cost low. As they evolved they got 1/4 bottoms and welded aluminum decks,which made them more durable.
I have renovated at couple of them for customers,they all have the same issues as Bill's.They are hard to find for sale and if you do they go fast.

Welderbob

clammer
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Re: Thomas Garvey

#22

Post by clammer » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:07 am

my boats 3/16 bottom 1978 been thru hell and back been out when working in big li sound waves . planned off with 115 with 50 bushels clams plenty room left . just wish he put sharpie bow on help lift out next big wave no reason to build any heavy still going strong

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