Life rafts...whose got one?

#1

I have been toying with getting a raft for a while with a small canister to mount on top.
I fish coastal waters and am alone 90 percent of the time...other times there may be two other people with me.

I know that these things are tough to review, because most of us are fortunate enough to never use them...but does anyone have one and have any thoughts on them?
Thanks.

Here were a few that seem to be the type that makes sense to me (the links don't connect

- if interested, copy and paste the entire url ):

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... &id=904965

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 1&id=81828

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... &id=700390

#2

Been thinking about one, and just studying up on them.

Currently have survival suits, and an epirb.

I don't like the idea of the raft on a hard top. If you as the Capt. gets hurt in a situation where the raft needs to be deployed then you are relying on your, wife, kids, friend etc.......to climb up on to the HT and get the raft. Chances are they will not know what & how to deploy it properly either.

IMHO it makes more sense to have it accessible on the deck, where you are not risking injury.

I plan to divide my anchor locker in half horizontally and making a compartment I can slide it into.

Just my 2 cents but a good idea to have one.

SL Dave, Defender has a huge sale at the end of March every year. This is for INTERNET purchases too. No sales tax either.

CanCanCase · #3

I've got one of the "WestMarine" brand 6-man canister made by Zodiac. Great little unit, but annual service cost is creeping up toward $800 for re-cert.

I don't think much of a valise unit... gotta go dig it out of the v-birth, lug 50+ pounds up on deck, then deploy the thing? Not when I'm in "a situation".... Mine is right up top with a hydrostatic thingy that cuts it loose when it sinks.

Unless you're a commercial fisherman or trained (and required) to don your survival suit in less than 30 seconds, I don't see the value in them. Every boat or ship I've watched sink has gone down in under a minute.... it happens faster than any of us would like to admit.

Especially in these cold waters, I don't want to spend any time in them if I can avoid it! (unless I've got 250 cf of 17/50 strapped to my back!) ;-)

-Case

#4

CanCan,

Is there a way to deploy it before you/it sinks? I would think that you'd be in the water before the release releases???

Again, I am just learning about the whole raft thing. I'm sure different rafts fit different needs too.

If all you have is a minute then I would think you are in trouble no matter it be a survival suit or raft, and your top priority should be the EPIRB first.

Marty (Ironwood) was involved in a simulated sinking/survival with Tred Barta, and the US National Guard. I'd like to here his input.

CanCanCase · #5

Deploy before it sinks? Yes... toss it in the water, and pull the "painter" line. Proper crew training is key here too... all "automatic" models can be deployed manually, very few "manual" models can be deployed automatically.

In my world of cold water and responsibility for human lives, the life jackets get first priority, raft second, distress calling/information sending third, then comes all the other stuff like EPIRB, my survival kit, crew, etc...

-Case

#6

Good points CanCan....Very Good

#7

Hey Guys,

I have had a 6-man offshore raft since my 24' Albemarle days. I get it servered regularlly and don't leave home without it.

Our issue up here in the Northeast waters is hypothermia. A raft is a necessity for offshore travel, PERIOD!

When I did the "Rescue at Sea" show with Tred a cuple of years ago, I gotta tell you that rehursing what and how things are going to go down in a real EMergency when the vessel may go down is super important. I test and time Cody (my son) every year on getting into his survival suit. The raft is the second thing to keeping you alive after the survival suit. It allows you to huddle together to keep warmer, to have food and water and your sanity.

I personally know the owner of the Life Raft company that supplied the rafts for the show and I can tell you when you compare the different MGFs to one an other they look to me as one of the better if not best. If a couple of guys want to get together an buy a few rafts at a time, I may be able to get a deal for ya.

Again, I would only by an Offshore model, because if you go down in a storm the difference is quite substantial from a rescue raft to an offshore raft. The big self deploying baffels below the raft in an offshore model fill with water and add 600lbs.+ of baffel to keep your raft much more stable and keep it from being blown over in high winds and seas. The sealed packaging that they offer is sealed and double the BETWEEN SERVICING requirements.

Send me a PM if your interested and if you want a 4-6-8 man inshore or offshore unit, with or without a valise or hard container.mty

#8

CanCanCase wrote:I've got one of the "WestMarine" brand 6-man canister made by Zodiac. Great little unit, but annual service cost is creeping up toward $800 for re-cert.

I don't think much of a valise unit... gotta go dig it out of the v-birth, lug 50+ pounds up on deck, then deploy the thing? Not when I'm in "a situation".... Mine is right up top with a hydrostatic thingy that cuts it loose when it sinks.

Unless you're a commercial fisherman or trained (and required) to don your survival suit in less than 30 seconds, I don't see the value in them. Every boat or ship I've watched sink has gone down in under a minute.... it happens faster than any of us would like to admit.

Especially in these cold waters, I don't want to spend any time in them if I can avoid it! (unless I've got 250 cf of 17/50 strapped to my back!) ;-)
-Case

CanCanCase:

I really couldn't disagree with you more! and what I am about to say, I ay with respect and conviction to you for your own safety, not to be a wise BACK SIDE...

1st I agree that the recet fee sounds expensive, I pay $375.00 last time but it worth the annual cost. I think (not even knowing you) that the 800.00 fee is less than trying to replace your life!

2nd, I think that waiting til the boat is going do and waiting it the water for my self-deploying raft to pop off and inflate is not my choice of actions to take. If it happens on a breach and your flipped OK, but, you want if at all possible to deploy the raft yourself, get your crew and your self in it and leave it lashed to your vessel until it is undoubtable about to go under, then disconnect or cut the teather. I use the valise case and have it so it is the 1st thing out of my Emergency Equipment bin, no lifting, just open the bunk door and drag the raft out on the floor and then to the rear of the boat, lift to the gunnel and put overboard on the lee-ward side of the boat, if the boat is burning you don't want the raft being blown back into the burning boat. Proper access and placement is most important, case or valise is secondary.

3rd, Saying that you think that only a commercial trained crew is the only people to use survival suits is just plain nieve and dumb! It takes all of an hour of trial runs to get your speed down to a minute or less getting into a survival suit. Remember these words, when you in the water in your cloths, as the 70-degree water sucks the life out of your body till your shivering to death. These suits are made large and bulky to be easy to get into and to ad air insulation between your skin and the suit which is submersed in water

4th, the survival suit is just as important in your Offshore raft as it is just floating in the water without a raft. The rafts always end up with water in them, at night being in a raft in the N.E. is going to be quite cold and that suit is a real deal maker. Trust me, plus if your raft fails, that suit will be a real sweet thing that may just help save your crews and your life..

5th, You should always train your crew on what exactly will happen, who will do what, ho is responsible for what if the Doo-doo hits the fan. When you come on my boat, I give a five minute on-the-boat training class on what each person must do, how and what is stored in the Emergency Cabinet, I tell the biggest two guys that they are responsible to get the raft out and ready at the engine box, while the next two guys are to get all the survival suits, life preservers, ditch bag, main GPS EBIRB, first aid kit, who is to get water bottles and food. Then it takes a few minutes to take out one suit and show how it goes on. I value my crew, my son and my self to be insistant on this EVERY time I go offshore. My crew know I am the Captain, I tell them what to do in case of an emergency and I will bring them home safe. If something happens to me, my son is second in command and know and cna handle the situation.

When I did the film with Tred, i had alread been offshore on 40+ canyon trips and I'll tell you, that simulated experience is one that EVERY offshore fisherman should be able to train and experience. Unfortuantely, that's not possible and if it happens it will be for real...KNOW YOUR Doo-doo!
Marty

http://www.youtube.com/user/BLM26CC · #9

I'm heading offshore this summer, for the first time in 8 years!

And am just figuring out where to put my VHF antenna!

And don't want to even mess with this since it's another couple hundred $$ and more work doing the mounting.

But I guess I have to have one. Been a handhelder-man in the river.

Will ya never be around other boats Dave?????

#10

Marty,
Great post. I've watched and watched and watched that show with you guys doing the survival simulation.

We've all learned from our mistakes, but unfortunately when in the drink in the NE it could be your last mistake.

It's important for all the crew to understand if tragedy strikes we all have a job and work as a team to insure that all survives.

I've pulled people out of the water years back off Pt. Judith RI from a stupid mistake the captain made. It's an everlasting memory.........

CanCanCase · #11

Marty-

I had a lengthy post replying to every one of your points all queued up and ready. When I proof read it, however, everything came off as if I was arguing with you, and that's certainly not my intent. The vast majority of points I was trying to make boiled down to " yes, I understand what your boating conditions are like. Mine are worse in many respects. I've spent 23 hours in 70 degree water, I've spent 9 hours in 34 degree water."

Also, we've got some different opinions of what's necessary probably because your definition of off-shore is WAY different from mine. To me, the term off shore relates to any time we leave the dock. How can anyone be expected to give a 1-hour lesson on donning a gumby suit when the whole charter is only scheduled to last 2.5 hours? The commercial (or paid) crew members are the only ones who need or receive this training. Clients do not.

My point about the life-raft is also very sound, IMO... if your boat was sinking next to mine, it would be MY liferaft that was deployed first, as mine is already outside and 2 feet from my primary helm. While someone is down below digging and lugging the valise up on deck, I've already got mine in the water and the painter pulled. While folks are gathering water, first aid kit, etc. I've already got my shotgun in hand, and ditch bag thrown in the raft with everything necessary to keep folks warm and dry for a week or 10 days.

I guess the bottom line and the moral that can be taken away from our rather lively debate is that different waters call for different standards of care. Nobody ever wants to be in a situation where you are forced to abandon a ship. The OP wanted peoples' thoughts on liferafts, and now I suppose Dave has many of your thoughts and mine! ;-)

-Case

#12

Thanks Case and Marty! Excellent thoughts from both. It seems real simple...we all should get a raft.
So, with a canister that is mounted on a hard top, bow, or other exterior space...does the whole canister get tossed overboard and deploy or does the sinking fisherman open the canister, throw the raft overboard (leeward side!) and pull the cord?

Also good to think that if the boat were to turtle the top mounted raft would deploy and find it's way to the surface. That's the way it is supposed to work right?

Case...how does anything except ice and crabs stay in 34 degree water for 9 hours or 23 hours in 70 for that matter? In a suit, raft or both? Is there an amazing survival story there?

CanCanCase · #13

S L Dave wrote:...So, with a canister that is mounted on a hard top, bow, or other exterior space...does the whole canister get tossed overboard and deploy or does the sinking fisherman open the canister, throw the raft overboard (leeward side!) and pull the cord?

Also good to think that if the boat were to turtle the top mounted raft would deploy and find it's way to the surface. That's the way it is supposed to work right?

Case...how does anything except ice and crabs stay in 34 degree water for 9 hours or 23 hours in 70 for that matter? In a suit, raft or both? Is there an amazing survival story there?

The whole canister blows open when the thing inflates. It can be manual - just pull the painter line until the thing blows up, or automatic... the hydrostatic release just cuts the canister loose to float, but the painter line is fixed to the boat... as the boat sinks, it pulls the painter line... knee bone connected to the leg bone... all of a sudden the raft inflates.

The time in 70 degree water was a bit harrowing, but not too threatening... I was caught in a current and blown off a wreck at 150 meters. Couldn't surface with my deco obligation, and 8 hours later when I did surface I was close to 30 miles away from the original dive site. It still amazes me that a few SCUBA tanks and a big BCD make for such a good liferaft when necessary.

9 hours in cold water was just a regular ol deco dive around here. I guess 9 hours is a small exaggeration... 8 hours and 43 minutes was the total run time for the dive. After the first 3 hours in a dry suit, you really start to feel how fast the helium conducts heat away from you. Switch off to air and it gets a little better.... When your support team brings a bottle of Argon, USE IT! WAY better insulator than He or Air....

-Case

#14

I guess my only point in a HT mounted raft is that if sinking, in rough conditions, the last thing I want on my boat is someone up on the HT. That person gets tossed into the water now we have a situation where we have a MOB, and still no raft released.

This is something I have set in my mind after seeing many TV shows etc... Is it reality.....I'm not sure?

The main point here is that we all have concerns for safety and safe boating..........and that is important.

skfmj · #15

This is an interesting debate, but it is easy to get carried away, especially with an unlimited budget. If I take Marty's advice to the logical extreme then if I go on any charter boat I better bring my own Survival suit, because I know most charter operations don't carry them for the passengers. If I go on a cruse I better bring one as well. I know there are no survival suits on cruse ships ether. In fact it is a good idea to bring my own life-raft as well. We all know the story of the Titanic.

We can also debate about the sanity of going off shore without twin motors and fuel systems, dual radios and chart plotters and radar. In fact we should not consider going off shore unless we have two boats.

Have any of you guys heard of Risk homeostasis? It is a psycological theory developed by Gerald Wilde at Queen's Univeristy in Canada. It states that an indvidual has an inbuilt target level of acceptable risk that does not change. When the level of acceptable risk in one part of the individual's life changes; there will be a corresponding rise/drop in acceptable risk elsewhere. The same, argues Wilde, is true of larger human systems (e.g. a population of drivers).

For example, in the famous Munich taxicab study, half of a fleet of cabs were equipped with antilock braking system (ABS) brakes, while the other half had older brake systems. The accident rate for both types of car (ABS and non-ABS) remained the same, because ABS-car drivers took more risks, assuming that ABS would take care of them. They raised their risk taking, assuming the ABS would then lower the real risks, leaving their "target level" of risk unchanged. The non-ABS drivers drove the same way, thinking that they had to be more careful, since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation.

So the idea of having a life-raft on board may increse your risk because you are now willing to take greater chances because you think having it makes you safer.

As far as Marty is concerned I think he has his stuff together but I also think Marty takes greater risk than I would. He certainly has done more extreme things on the water than I have, as a result he manages his risk differently than I do.

Going off-shore is all about managing risk. There are a lot of things we can do that reduce the risk of going off shore without having to cary life-rafts, which is a last line of defense. Personally, I would fight very hard not to leave my primary vessel. Your first line of defense is your boat along with your sills and experience operating that boat. Consider submariners, those guys don't really have life-rafts. The boat they are in is their life. If it goes they go. If I ever need a life-raft I have made some REALLY bad choices and taken risks that drove me over the edge.

Richard

#16

Right Richard! Exactly the reason I am thinking about a raft...to take some additional risks. Move farther offshore, go out on some days when the weather is less than perfect, etc. And there is always the chance that a fitting fails and the pump can't keep up for some reason. Not probable, but possible.

I rode my Harley over 50,000 miles on LA freeways and never had an accident, but I knew that I would never say words: "Man I am glad I didn't wear my full face helmet today!"

Now if I did the stuff that Marty does...I would take three boats!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/BLM26CC · #17

WHAT HE SAID.........WHAT HE SAID.........WHAT HE SAID.........

skfmj wrote:This is an interesting debate, but it is easy to get carried away, especially with an unlimited budget. If I take Marty's advice to the logical extreme then if I go on any charter boat I better bring my own Survival suit, because I know most charter operations don't carry them for the passengers. If I go on a cruse I better bring one as well. I know there are no survival suits on cruse ships ether. In fact it is a good idea to bring my own life-raft as well. We all know the story of the Titanic.

We can also debate about the sanity of going off shore without twin motors and fuel systems, dual radios and chart plotters and radar. In fact we should not consider going off shore unless we have two boats.

Have any of you guys heard of Risk homeostasis? It is a psycological theory developed by Gerald Wilde at Queen's Univeristy in Canada. It states that an indvidual has an inbuilt target level of acceptable risk that does not change. When the level of acceptable risk in one part of the individual's life changes; there will be a corresponding rise/drop in acceptable risk elsewhere. The same, argues Wilde, is true of larger human systems (e.g. a population of drivers).

For example, in the famous Munich taxicab study, half of a fleet of cabs were equipped with antilock braking system (ABS) brakes, while the other half had older brake systems. The accident rate for both types of car (ABS and non-ABS) remained the same, because ABS-car drivers took more risks, assuming that ABS would take care of them. They raised their risk taking, assuming the ABS would then lower the real risks, leaving their "target level" of risk unchanged. The non-ABS drivers drove the same way, thinking that they had to be more careful, since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation.

So the idea of having a life-raft on board may increse your risk because you are now willing to take greater chances because you think having it makes you safer.

As far as Marty is concerned I think he has his stuff together but I also think Marty takes greater risk than I would. He certainly has done more extreme things on the water than I have, as a result he manages his risk differently than I do.

Going off-shore is all about managing risk. There are a lot of things we can do that reduce the risk of going off shore without having to cary life-rafts, which is a last line of defense. Personally, I would fight very hard not to leave my primary vessel. Your first line of defense is your boat along with your sills and experience operating that boat. Consider submariners, those guys don't really have life-rafts. The boat they are in is their life. If it goes they go. If I ever need a life-raft I have made some REALLY bad choices and taken risks that drove me over the edge.

Richard

ONE LAST TIME,

WHAT HE SAID.........

#18

I would like to know what raft is recommended (bang for the buck :D ) for a boat the size of my Pacific 23'. Max distance I travel is 40-50 miles offshore?

Perhaps Jim from BOE Marine can kick in here with some recommendations.

#19

Interesting thread... I just happen to deal with all of our raft sales in our shop...

Here are your most basic considerations when picking the right raft for you and the boating conditions you find yourself in most often...

USCG Approved or Recreational: USCG approved rafts are heavier, more expensive and require more frequent servicing than a comparative recreational raft. If you do not have commercial requirements to carry a USCG approved raft than it is not necesary to have one.

Coastal or Offshore: How far are you going off shore?? generally 20 miles offshore is the line where you switch from a coastal to offshore raft. Off the top of my head here are 2 differences between offshore and coastal models... Offshore rafts are made with the expectation that it will take longer for you to be rescued so they have heaftier equipment packs. Most offshore rafts have insulated floors. All of these extras = more weight

Valise or Hard Pack: this should be determined by where you have room to keep your raft. in the case of a canister (hard pack) raft it should be mounted where nothing will get in the way of its deployment. in the case of a valise (thats suitcase en francaise) you should be able to store it somewhere that you can get to it easily and get it out and on deck quickly and easily

Amount of people/size of raft: how many people do you boat with? depending on the manufacturer generally rafts have 3-4 sq ft per person. 2, 4, 6, 8 people (and they keep on going)....

Some more things to think about... AND in response to some of the other items mentioned on this thread...

weight of raft: the smallest/weakest person on your boat should be able to get that raft overboard. this is especially important to think about when purchasing a valise raft. I find the lighter the raft the more expensive they get.

where you are boating: if its a cold water area you should consider an insulated floor. of course a more expensive option, but most likely could be a life saver.

vacuum packing: this cuts down on your servicing intervals... every 3 yrs on a recreational raft. There are rafts that are not vacuum packed.

there is no unpacking required when deploying a raft. Just get the whole thing, hard pack or valise and all, in the water. as mentioned previously, MAKE SURE YOU TIE OFF THE PAINTER (for deployment purposes and to keep the raft within your reach)! Remember it's always easiest to step down into a raft.

The hydrostatcic release (used on valise packed rafts in cradles) releases the canister from the cradle when it is about 12 ft below water level. it is a pressure activated device.

There are options startign at $1000 for the recreational coastal boater and rafts can climb into the multiple thousands of dollars.

Honestly, I could go on and on (but I have to go to work!)... If you have any specific questions feel free to call me or fire away. Everyones situation is so different and everyone I deal with thinks of their safety very differently.

#20

Beth,
Great post!!! I do have some questions but want to digest what's here. There is a ton of helpful info in this post.

#21

Beth , do you have some pics of deployed rafts you could post here.
Thanks for the Info. :)

#22

Example of Coastal Raft (with canopy):

Example of Offshore Raft:

Example of Coastal Raft (no canopy):

Example of interior of raft with inflatable insulated floor (like a pillow top mattress!):

Example of canister packed raft, cradle, and hydrostatic release:

#23

Another very important reason, not previously mentioned, to have a raft on board...

An inflated raft (as compared to a bobbing head) gives a person in need of being plucked out of the sea an amazing amount of visibility.

Could be the difference of being located by a search and rescue team or not.

#24

Beth and everyone else, if you watch crefully on my show Rescue at Sae, where the C130 crew is searching for us, at one point you will see a little orange speck on the big pond. That was our 8-man raft. Its just a speck and that is from the 4000ft search height the planes usually fly at. Its unbeleivable just how small a 8-man raft is. What is very important is to have the green water dye, easiest to see from a distance and the 50ft x e' bright orande plastic banner to deploy and hang from the raft. It is more visible. Lots of dye and flares. Hope none of us ever really have to use the real deal! Mty

#25

Marty,

Is there a way to post up that video, or pcs of that episode? I think that is one of the best I've seen. Like Tred or not it was about the do's & don't's, and after watching it with my family it made all of us realize how quickly, and terribly wrong things can go. A great day on the water can turn in seconds. How important it is for everyone to work as a team in this kind of situation so that all survive.

AT

AluminumAlloyBoats.com

Life rafts...whose got one?

Life rafts...whose got one?

SAVE YOUR LIFE-GO FOR THE RAFT!

TRAIN AND BE SAFE!

Re: TRAIN AND BE SAFE!