This is another sacred cow topic I'd like more insight about. I fully understand the value of self bailing decks in boats intended for rough conditions. However, I don't fish in those conditions. I've been out in stuff when you can't really walk from the helm to get to a rod that goes off, but rather had to crawl. This is in a 20' Hewes SR, non self bailing, etc. I have fished when a 24' NR OS with twins poked it's nose out and then returned to port. I have never needed self bailing decks from a safety perspective, and doubt many others have, either. If the CC says we can fish, self bailing decks aren't a required safety feature. Seems the main advantage is for washing the deck down to get rid of slime, blood, etc.
But, self bailing decks come at a price. The raised decks reduce usable interior volume, and practically mandate the transom fishbox. Those boxes reduce cockpit length by more than 12", and that's high priced real estate. True, some designs utilize the extra volume below decks for fish boxes, but insulating those so that they actually hold ice is problematic. Wooldridge's OS do not come standard with self bailing decks, so obviously there is some validity to this viewpoint. Thoughts?
Self Bailing
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gandrfab
- Posts: 600
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:33 pm
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- Your location: Edgewater Fl
- Location: Edgewater Fl
Re: Self Bailing
I spent 800+ hours On a glass boat that the fish boxes drained into the bilge, and most of the the deck water did flow overboard. Original rule bilge pump sold with the boat.
Re: Self Bailing
I will only own a boat with a self bailing deck, I saw a small boat almost sink a couple weeks ago at the beach in shallow water when a couple big waves broke over the bow and filled the boat. If I have a choice of having a boat that will stay afloat and operational without depending on a pump I will choose that every time. Also having an aluminum boat I want to keep salt water out of the bilge where I can't get to it, flush or clean it properly.
'05 Pacific 1925
Mercury 150
Mercury 150
Re: Self Bailing
I certainly am not going to say don't innovate..but... You seem to want to reinvent the wheel.
No self bailing deck, want to "engineer" strength with thinner metal....
Everyone else is looking for 1/4" and self bailing decks with a bracket...
Probably for a good reason.
No self bailing deck, want to "engineer" strength with thinner metal....
Everyone else is looking for 1/4" and self bailing decks with a bracket...
Probably for a good reason.
Re: Self Bailing
There's lots of inertia and closed mindedness when it comes to boat design. Many folks who know no better think that only boats with brackets are suitable for offshore use. I beg to differ, and the things I'm talking about are currently produced by Wooldridge. If you want to maximize efficiency from the standpoints of weight, cockpit space and LOA, bracket boats and self-bailing decks built with .250"/.190" material are definitely not the way to go. Innovate? Why not? Why shouldn't we push the limits? How else do you advance or improve?Chtucker wrote:I certainly am not going to say don't innovate..but... You seem to want to reinvent the wheel.
No self bailing deck, want to "engineer" strength with thinner metal....
Everyone else is looking for 1/4" and self bailing decks with a bracket...
Probably for a good reason.
Aesthetically, a splashwell boat/Euro transom flows better to my eye. As I've said before, bleeding fish in the splashwell means you avoid lifting them to eye level to place then into the transom fishbox, or throwing them onto the deck to bleed. Not having self bailing decks means you can tuck the batteries, etc, under the splashwell. That means that you don't have to waste 12"+ on the transom fishbox, that bulkhead then is a single thickness so you gain an extra foot of cockpit length. Again, maximize fishability and efficiency. What's not to like?
Re: Self Bailing
There's lots of inertia and closed mindedness when it comes to boat design. Many folks who know no better think that only boats with brackets are suitable for offshore use. I beg to differ, and the things I'm talking about are currently produced by Wooldridge. If you want to maximize efficiency from the standpoints of weight, cockpit space with a given LOA, bracket boats and self-bailing decks built with .250"/.190" material are definitely not the way to go. Innovate? Why not? Why shouldn't we push the limits? How else do you advance or improve?Chtucker wrote:I certainly am not going to say don't innovate..but... You seem to want to reinvent the wheel.
No self bailing deck, want to "engineer" strength with thinner metal....
Everyone else is looking for 1/4" and self bailing decks with a bracket...
Probably for a good reason.
Aesthetically, a splashwell boat/Euro transom flows better to my eye. As I've said before, bleeding fish in the splashwell means you avoid lifting them to eye level to place then into the transom fishbox, or throwing them onto the deck to bleed. Not having self bailing decks means you can tuck the batteries, etc, under the splashwell. That means that you don't have to waste 12"+ on the transom fishbox, that bulkhead then is a single thickness so you gain an extra foot of cockpit length. Again, maximize fishability and efficiency. What's not to like?
Last edited by paddler on Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Self Bailing
Well the first time the sheet hits the fan and you don't have one you'll wish you had one.
My old Davis had em. Loved em. Needed them in the weather I fished in. Took a green wave over the bow just 200 yards from the mouth of the harbor. Put enough water to have me standing in at least 2-3" of water (over 90 sq. ft of deck space). Filled my 2 coffin size fish holds to the brim but never realized it cause I was to busy changing my underwear LOL. Wonder what that amount of water would have done to an open bow non self bailing boat? Can you image this huge wall of water coming up and over the windshield regardless of whether or not you had the canvas snapped on? Even in a PH you'd still have water running down the gunnels going into the cockpit.
My North River didn't have em. One reason I never took it out on the ocean in 9 years of owning it. Was out on Flaming Gorge once and even though it wasn't really rough we took water over the bow and side constantly trying to get back up to Buckboard. By the time I got back to the marina and pulled the boat the bilge was maybe just a few inches from getting to the starter (IO). That's a lot of water.
When I ordered the Wooldridge I originally wasn't going to go with the self bailing deck due to costs. But the more I thought about it the more I KNEW it was the right thing to do. You wanna play in the ocean then you better have the right boat to handle it IMO. Besides, I'm not losing much with the gunnels something like 35" high. Might even be higher.
There's another reason I wanted a self bailing deck; I don't want saltwater going into the bilge if it can be helped. There is NO WAY you can properly clean the bilge and get all the salt out. Once saltwater dries it'll crystalize and won't come off unless it's scrubbed off. Problem is you won't be able to access places water will get into. Like under the fuel tank. Why do you think people have problems with crevice corrosion?
Boulton once said he thought that a self bailing deck was the most over rated option on a boat. I cringed when I heard that and was a huge turn off for someone trying to sell me a boat to fish offshore.
My old Davis had em. Loved em. Needed them in the weather I fished in. Took a green wave over the bow just 200 yards from the mouth of the harbor. Put enough water to have me standing in at least 2-3" of water (over 90 sq. ft of deck space). Filled my 2 coffin size fish holds to the brim but never realized it cause I was to busy changing my underwear LOL. Wonder what that amount of water would have done to an open bow non self bailing boat? Can you image this huge wall of water coming up and over the windshield regardless of whether or not you had the canvas snapped on? Even in a PH you'd still have water running down the gunnels going into the cockpit.
My North River didn't have em. One reason I never took it out on the ocean in 9 years of owning it. Was out on Flaming Gorge once and even though it wasn't really rough we took water over the bow and side constantly trying to get back up to Buckboard. By the time I got back to the marina and pulled the boat the bilge was maybe just a few inches from getting to the starter (IO). That's a lot of water.
When I ordered the Wooldridge I originally wasn't going to go with the self bailing deck due to costs. But the more I thought about it the more I KNEW it was the right thing to do. You wanna play in the ocean then you better have the right boat to handle it IMO. Besides, I'm not losing much with the gunnels something like 35" high. Might even be higher.
There's another reason I wanted a self bailing deck; I don't want saltwater going into the bilge if it can be helped. There is NO WAY you can properly clean the bilge and get all the salt out. Once saltwater dries it'll crystalize and won't come off unless it's scrubbed off. Problem is you won't be able to access places water will get into. Like under the fuel tank. Why do you think people have problems with crevice corrosion?
Boulton once said he thought that a self bailing deck was the most over rated option on a boat. I cringed when I heard that and was a huge turn off for someone trying to sell me a boat to fish offshore.
Re: Self Bailing
Well, I guess I've been taking my life in my hands for the last 15 years fishing in boats that were/are not self bailing. Funny you should mention the Gorge. I bought my 16'5" Alumacraft from Les at Buckboard Marina in the mid 90's. I fished that boat out of La Push for 6 years and never once felt unsafe. Not only did it not have a self bailing deck, it didn't have a windshield or even a console. It wasn't an open bow, but a completely boat. Tiller steer 50HP Mercury carbureted 4 stroke engine, no kicker. The electronics weren't much, either, Hand held Garmin 12 for GPS, Humminbird handheld VHF, Lowrance X 16 paper graph, hand crank Penn 600 downriggers. That boat was 16 1/2' of fish killing machine.jj225 wrote:Well the first time the sheet hits the fan and you don't have one you'll wish you had one.
My old Davis had em. Loved em. Needed them in the weather I fished in. Took a green wave over the bow just 200 yards from the mouth of the harbor. Put enough water to have me standing in at least 2-3" of water (over 90 sq. ft of deck space). Filled my 2 coffin size fish holds to the brim but never realized it cause I was to busy changing my underwear LOL. Wonder what that amount of water would have done to an open bow non self bailing boat? Can you image this huge wall of water coming up and over the windshield regardless of whether or not you had the canvas snapped on? Even in a PH you'd still have water running down the gunnels going into the cockpit.
My North River didn't have em. One reason I never took it out on the ocean in 9 years of owning it. Was out on Flaming Gorge once and even though it wasn't really rough we took water over the bow and side constantly trying to get back up to Buckboard. By the time I got back to the marina and pulled the boat the bilge was maybe just a few inches from getting to the starter (IO). That's a lot of water.
When I ordered the Wooldridge I originally wasn't going to go with the self bailing deck due to costs. But the more I thought about it the more I KNEW it was the right thing to do. You wanna play in the ocean then you better have the right boat to handle it IMO. Besides, I'm not losing much with the gunnels something like 35" high. Might even be higher.
There's another reason I wanted a self bailing deck; I don't want saltwater going into the bilge if it can be helped. There is NO WAY you can properly clean the bilge and get all the salt out. Once saltwater dries it'll crystalize and won't come off unless it's scrubbed off. Problem is you won't be able to access places water will get into. Like under the fuel tank. Why do you think people have problems with crevice corrosion?
Boulton once said he thought that a self bailing deck was the most over rated option on a boat. I cringed when I heard that and was a huge turn off for someone trying to sell me a boat to fish offshore.
My Hewes is a big step up from the Alumacraft. I no longer have to don my rain gear coming back in from the Rockpile with a 15 knot wind out of the northwest.:) I've fished the boat for 8 years now, never had water over the bow. I kinda agree with Boulton. He was probably hinting that if you need bailing decks to be safe, you should maybe wait for better conditions. You're not going to have much fun fishing, anyway.
Re: Self Bailing
Well look, you do what you wanna do. Simple as that. 15 years or 30 years it makes no difference how much experience you think you have. You live in UT so that limits the amount of fishing days your ever going to get on the ocean. Just how many hours do those 15 years actually pen out to btw?
Accidents are just like it says; accidents. You never know when something is going to happen. You may fish the rest of your life and never have something happen. Hopefully, that's the case for all of us. But stuff happens and IMO it's best to mitigate what can happen. Again it's up to you though.
Accidents are just like it says; accidents. You never know when something is going to happen. You may fish the rest of your life and never have something happen. Hopefully, that's the case for all of us. But stuff happens and IMO it's best to mitigate what can happen. Again it's up to you though.
Re: Self Bailing
I just wonder what self bailing decks buys you as far as safety in a small boat. As you say, things can go south in a hurry, so the best practice would be to keep water outside your boat in the first place rather than rely on self bailing decks to prevent capsizing. Seems like if self bailing decks help that much the Coast Guard would take that into account when determining bar restrictions. I wonder if there are any studies on this topic, you know, hard data rather than "conventional wisdom".jj225 wrote:Well look, you do what you wanna do. Simple as that. 15 years or 30 years it makes no difference how much experience you think you have. You live in UT so that limits the amount of fishing days your ever going to get on the ocean. Just how many hours do those 15 years actually pen out to btw?
Accidents are just like it says; accidents. You never know when something is going to happen. You may fish the rest of your life and never have something happen. Hopefully, that's the case for all of us. But stuff happens and IMO it's best to mitigate what can happen. Again it's up to you though.
Re: Self Bailing
Maybe the Coast Guard is not trying to be a nanny state?
The USCG response boat small are 1/4"" bottom plate, self bailing and on brackets.
That there is their wisdom.
The USCG response boat small are 1/4"" bottom plate, self bailing and on brackets.
That there is their wisdom.
Re: Self Bailing
What ever floats your boat Paddler. In the end you're going to do what you want to do. In seems like you've already made up your mind about self bailing decks so why bother to even ask?
You talk about keeping water out of the boat in the first place. That's all fine and dandy in theory. Unless you just go out on flat calm days then you're all good. Nothing to worry about. However, you seem to miss the point on what I've said. 200 yards from the mouth of the harbor is not offshore. No body could have predicted that we'd take a green wave over the bow even though it was a bit sporty. You seem to ignore the idea of water getting into the bilge where you'll never get the opportunity to get the salt out. You run in or out in quartering seas with any sort of wind, water will come into your boat. If you haven't experienced that then you've never really been out much in those 15 years. You plan on having 48" sides to keep pretty much all water out of your boat? No wash down pump to clean the inside of your boat?
You know half the guys on Ifish are morons. They think anything that floats is a tuna killer.
You talk about keeping water out of the boat in the first place. That's all fine and dandy in theory. Unless you just go out on flat calm days then you're all good. Nothing to worry about. However, you seem to miss the point on what I've said. 200 yards from the mouth of the harbor is not offshore. No body could have predicted that we'd take a green wave over the bow even though it was a bit sporty. You seem to ignore the idea of water getting into the bilge where you'll never get the opportunity to get the salt out. You run in or out in quartering seas with any sort of wind, water will come into your boat. If you haven't experienced that then you've never really been out much in those 15 years. You plan on having 48" sides to keep pretty much all water out of your boat? No wash down pump to clean the inside of your boat?
You know half the guys on Ifish are morons. They think anything that floats is a tuna killer.
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kmorin
- Donator 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:37 am
- 15
- Your location: Kenai, AK
- Location: Kenai, Alaska
Self Regulating Posts
Gentlemen, let's not escalate the language in our posts to word choices below the standards Welder (all of our very kind host) has set and we've observed for many years!
IF one of us does or doesn't think well of another opinion, which happens all the time, just read JettyWolf's opinion of not posting your location !!! THEN... we can still object, disagree and counter-point in terms that retain some degree of constraint.
DON'T bad mouth or the post will disappear; keep it up and the membership/login will go next.
Remember what my grandmother used to say: "If you can't say it at the dinner table, it's likely best left unsaid."
Just a word about the civility that we expect here at AAB.com Forum, a tone that attracts many readers who have left other marine related sites in disgust over the ill mannered tone of posters "back there".
Simple rule of thumb, if you don't like the other opinion, simply don't reply after a simple, "I don't agree". End of rude posts.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
IF one of us does or doesn't think well of another opinion, which happens all the time, just read JettyWolf's opinion of not posting your location !!! THEN... we can still object, disagree and counter-point in terms that retain some degree of constraint.
DON'T bad mouth or the post will disappear; keep it up and the membership/login will go next.
Remember what my grandmother used to say: "If you can't say it at the dinner table, it's likely best left unsaid."
Just a word about the civility that we expect here at AAB.com Forum, a tone that attracts many readers who have left other marine related sites in disgust over the ill mannered tone of posters "back there".
Simple rule of thumb, if you don't like the other opinion, simply don't reply after a simple, "I don't agree". End of rude posts.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin
Re: Self Bailing
CC Response Boats have a different job description than my boat.
I get spray in my boat. The bilge pump takes care of it. I was worried about what was happening under my decks, so I pulled them a couple of years ago. Everything looked pristine. I agree about the crevice corrosion, though, it's a concern. I'm very compulsive about flushing my bilge, pump, etc.
Here's a post from ifish on this topic:
http://www.ifish.net/board/showpost.php ... stcount=38
I get spray in my boat. The bilge pump takes care of it. I was worried about what was happening under my decks, so I pulled them a couple of years ago. Everything looked pristine. I agree about the crevice corrosion, though, it's a concern. I'm very compulsive about flushing my bilge, pump, etc.
Here's a post from ifish on this topic:
http://www.ifish.net/board/showpost.php ... stcount=38
Re: Self Bailing
Hmmm, why ask for other's opinion when you have already made up your mind? I'm with you MacCTD...
Re: Self Bailing
Just wondering if I'm missing something or if self bailing decks are like brackets, ie, good because everybody says so without really thinking them through.capesteve wrote:Hmmm, why ask for other's opinion when you have already made up your mind? I'm with you MacCTD...
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kmorin
- Donator 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
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- Location: Kenai, Alaska
Lack of Self Regulating Posts
paddler, sorry you're not willing to give value to what's being said in all the refutations to your so-called "questions".
Brackets of any form, wells of any form or design- as well as decks versus open bilges of any form; have been hashed out, you've been given completely polite values for all the above, and equal anecdotes as to why or why not. The variety of designs preferred by others is not sufficiently important for us to loose our tone to someone trolling the AAB.com Forum.
"just wondering if I missed something"? Yes, paddler it appears you may have? each design element has been given some personal and individual justification for their stances on which of any element is worthwhile; while others may have agreed with your ideas.
Note that in each case you're asking for others' opinions that requires subjective replies, then you're attempting to label your answer as objective; so you're the sole definition of the answer. That exercise is not worth our time, why bother ourselves with those who are not well mannered enough to have civil discourse.
Stop being a troll.
If you have legitimate discussion as your goal, then post with some degree of respect for those who take time to help you question be explored or don't post.
Your statement "Just wondering if I'm missing something or if self bailing decks are like brackets, ie, good because everybody says so without really thinking them through."
Very clearly implies that anyone who doesn't agree with your particular opinion then; 'doesn't really think through'. That is trolling. WE don't need it. All the statement really means is that you appear to be an individual who's manners are not well enough developed to accept that others don't agree with your assertions, ideas and design goals for their own boats.
I can't help wonder that you miss the salient point: if you are entitled to your opinion of good, best, most this or that in a boat; why on earth wouldn't another person enjoy the same exact entitlement- just like you do?
As usual, the members here have been very gentle in their refutation of your ill manners, please reread what's said, consider your posts' language and tone and decide if you want to stay?
Thanks to the Forum for the continued politeness to others regardless of their manners and word choice of newcomers to our discussions of great boats in all their possible forms and uses.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
Brackets of any form, wells of any form or design- as well as decks versus open bilges of any form; have been hashed out, you've been given completely polite values for all the above, and equal anecdotes as to why or why not. The variety of designs preferred by others is not sufficiently important for us to loose our tone to someone trolling the AAB.com Forum.
"just wondering if I missed something"? Yes, paddler it appears you may have? each design element has been given some personal and individual justification for their stances on which of any element is worthwhile; while others may have agreed with your ideas.
Note that in each case you're asking for others' opinions that requires subjective replies, then you're attempting to label your answer as objective; so you're the sole definition of the answer. That exercise is not worth our time, why bother ourselves with those who are not well mannered enough to have civil discourse.
Stop being a troll.
If you have legitimate discussion as your goal, then post with some degree of respect for those who take time to help you question be explored or don't post.
Your statement "Just wondering if I'm missing something or if self bailing decks are like brackets, ie, good because everybody says so without really thinking them through."
Very clearly implies that anyone who doesn't agree with your particular opinion then; 'doesn't really think through'. That is trolling. WE don't need it. All the statement really means is that you appear to be an individual who's manners are not well enough developed to accept that others don't agree with your assertions, ideas and design goals for their own boats.
I can't help wonder that you miss the salient point: if you are entitled to your opinion of good, best, most this or that in a boat; why on earth wouldn't another person enjoy the same exact entitlement- just like you do?
As usual, the members here have been very gentle in their refutation of your ill manners, please reread what's said, consider your posts' language and tone and decide if you want to stay?
Thanks to the Forum for the continued politeness to others regardless of their manners and word choice of newcomers to our discussions of great boats in all their possible forms and uses.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
Re: Self Bailing
Kevin, you haven't chimed in on this topic from a design perspective, and I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts. Charles, aka Tinman, gave a couple of thoughtful responses on this topic over on ifish. He's not one of the "morons" over there. He suggests that the cost/benefit equation tilts in favor of self bailing decks when you get up to a LOA of ~28', but probably not at 21'. Given the intended use of sport fishing, do you agree with him? At what point do you think self bailing decks in a recreational boat make sense?
I prefer data or reasoned explanations to anecdotes. In the present discussion, maybe Coast Guard data exists that self bailing decks in small craft are beneficial. IMO, that's much more valuable than saying a small boat almost sank in the surf line. That scenario doesn't help much, as the real question is why that boat got into the breaking surf in the first place. Sorry if I seem dismissive at times, and will try to do better.
Will you be continuing your discussion of stern arrangements?
I prefer data or reasoned explanations to anecdotes. In the present discussion, maybe Coast Guard data exists that self bailing decks in small craft are beneficial. IMO, that's much more valuable than saying a small boat almost sank in the surf line. That scenario doesn't help much, as the real question is why that boat got into the breaking surf in the first place. Sorry if I seem dismissive at times, and will try to do better.
Will you be continuing your discussion of stern arrangements?
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kmorin
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- Location: Kenai, Alaska
Re: Self Bailing
Paddler this is not the real question, you were 'splained too' by long time open ocean sailors- stuff happens. The real question is why you continue to dismiss experienced advice? The purpose of the previous post that shows what can happen is to show the real salt water coastal world. IF you'd like the CG line, go there and ask!paddler wrote:That scenario doesn't help much, as the real question is why that boat got into the breaking surf in the first place.
paddler wrote:IMO, that's much more valuable than saying a small boat almost sank in the surf line.
Hey paddler- You obviously don't use insurance- I mean you aren't one of those suckers who has home owners or boat or car insurance are YOU? That's clearly a scam right? It obvious that someone who had "thought it through" wouldn't buy an expensive 'gambling' scheme just because somebody else told a story - right?
I'm out.
Cheers,
Kevin Morin
kmorin