Boat for Bar Crossings

[Fisherman]

Hi all,

I'm starting to put together a long list of features and designs I want built into my boat. It'll be 26-28' long, a walk-around pilothouse with forward leaning windshield and a cuddy for overnight stays in the harbor. I'm leaning towards outboard(s) power, maybe even on an extended transom (hull would be extended under bracket). I'll be taking it over the San Francisco bar each outing. While our bar is not as treacherous as the Columbia bar, the boat needs to be able to handle a lot.

So...what kind of deadrise at the transom and bow would you guys suggest? Would you go with a monohedron or warped hull? Reverse chine, small chine, wide chine? What width of boat at the chine? How about beam?

I recognize all factors affect hull performance, so several different combinations may act similar to each other. I realize this is a difficult question to answer. But I am interested to know what you guys may suggest: what each of you would select if you were having a boat built for open water. And, of course, please take into consideration fuel consumption. I'm willing to give up a little speed for fuel economy. (I do realize everything is a compromise).

Fire away, let's hear some of you would like if you were building a bar-crossing open water boat.

[dawgaholic]

Great topic....prepare for a tutorial.

Coming from one who has never experienced those conditions and would be freaking terrified, you came to the right place.

[Chaps]

Best boat for tough bar crossings are the Bartenders, usually built out of wood but you can get plans that are adaptable to alloy builds. They are double-enders so when waves come up from behind the boat doesn't get pushed around (and capsized). With bars, getting out is the easy part, getting back in . . . well, hope you are wearing diapers!

[dawgaholic]

Not to hijack the thread but as I'm not up to speed on the topic I got this in the search:

USCG Bar Closures

And this: Columbia bar closure

[goatram]

In your Length of boat mentioned the Northriver Offshore, The Wooldridge, The Duckworth, The Riverhawk, and Weldcraft all make an Aluminum 26 to 28' offshore boats that are willing and able to make the bar crossing no problem. My 21' Northriver has made the bar across Westport many times. If it is rough the GC limits the bar by the length of your boat.

The bar crossing can be rough just balance and trim your boat and Stay the heck away from the breaking waves. They can bite you bad.

[CTMD]

For regular bar crossings you need:

1. Stability
2. Predictability.
3. Reliability.

1. Stability.
Don't go for too high a deadrise, it will soften your ride but comes with a detrimental effect on stability for the size of boat you're talking aim for not more than 15 degrees.

There is a temptation with high deadrise to fit some form of floodable keel the problem here is that a floodable keel only offers extra stability at rest unless the fluid can be locked in and I'm yet to see a transom door system that is 100% reliable. If you want the extra stability maybe add a ballast tank that is manually filled and emptied.

Keep the vertical centre of gravity as low as possible, plate on the cabin top should be 1/8" at most and any radar towers etc should be built as lightly as possible.

Beam = stability so look for a wide waterline.

2. Predictability
You don't want your boat doing anything weird if you get waves from a strange angle so avoid:
- keep the transom straight (no engine pods etc)
- you don't want added "stability" above the waterline as this may cause the boat to auto correct in a way you don't expect.
- fuel tanks should have heaps of baffles and be kept as square as possible. A long tank will let fluids rush fwd when going down a wave which can cause you to broach on a wave front, A wide tank will let the fluids run to one side once the boat is heeled.

3. Reliability.
twin engines.
simple systems
a steering system that doesn't require to many turns in either direction

[Fisherman]

Chris,

Thanks for the info...some things there I haven't thought of like baffles in the fuel tank, transom stuff, etc.

When you say 15* deadrise, is your suggestion for the stern, bow, both?? Or would a warped hull be of any benefit?

[CTMD]

Stern, most these days have with a warped hull allows us to tweak the Volume to suit the layout. Keep the chines relative narrow 4-5 inches, 5-10 degrees reverse at the bow, flat at the back.

[Fisherman]

Stern, most these days have with a warped hull allows us to tweak the Volume to suit the layout. Keep the chines relative narrow 4-5 inches, 5-10 degrees reverse at the bow, flat at the back.

What deadrise would you suggest at the bow? 45-50*?

[CTMD]

It'll end up somewhere around that probably 48-50. But will depend a lot on the layout of the boat. It is more typical to look at the half angle of entry at the front of the boat which in this case would end up in the low 40s.

[Fisherman]

CMTD, thank you very much for your input. I really do appreciate it. I didn't understand this statement:

- you don't want added "stability" above the waterline as this may cause the boat to auto correct in a way you don't expect.

What do you mean by "added stability above the waterline"?

[CTMD]

Bouyancy tubes located well above the waterline - Like a Rib. Newer Stabicrafts are ok because the tube is basically a topside detail coming up from the chine.

[welder]

28 Pacific 10' beam, twin 225's
This is the Hull do what you need to for the top side.

[Fisherman]

Thanks Welder. I was just looking at the Pacific website today. I couldn't find any specs on the boats, as far as deadrise, chine info, etc. I sent them an e-mail, but if any of you have info to share, I'm all ears.

That is a good-looking boat.

[welder]

Fisherman, go to this link > http://www.pacificboats.com/pacboats_007.php
And this one > http://www.pacificboats.com/pacboats_030.php

Read everything on the pages , most of the pictures and colored words are links to other things , just run your mouse over everything on the page .

[Fisherman]

Fisherman, go to this link > http://www.pacificboats.com/pacboats_007.php
And this one > http://www.pacificboats.com/pacboats_030.php

Read everything on the pages , most of the pictures and colored words are links to other things , just run your mouse over everything on the page .

Yeah, I saw those pages today. But...I didn't see any info on bow deadrise, chine size and angle. All I got was 16* transom deadrise.

So is Pacific willing to customize EVERYTHING, or is it twisting an arm to budge from the normal ways? I want a lot of storage above deck and below. Big fish boxes (insulated). And I have a whole list of other "must haves". Will they make the boat 9' beam if that's what I decide I want?

[CTMD]

Design your boat then farm it around the available builders for quotes. That we you get the boat you want rather than the boat they're building.

[welder]

Fisherman, they will build just about anything you want. Just call them.

[Fisherman]

CTMD, in the picture above, why are there no lifting strakes on the boat? Is the chine doing everything and more that strakes would do?

[pjay9]

CTMD, in the picture above, why are there no lifting strakes on the boat? Is the chine doing everything and more that strakes would do?

Don't you know the water down there is slipperier than ours and lift is not an issue!

In looking at that fine vessel from the south...there doesn't seem to be a straight line anywhere on the hull...all compund curves...looks almost like a modified semi-displacement with sharp chines and no round turn of the bilge. I bet she settles nicely into a chop. Good looking craft! Capt PJ

[CTMD]

chine is doing enough. Despite popular belief that main reason to fit strakes is to break away excess spray which causes drag. I don't recommend strakes on boats to be built by first time builders as they can be problematic if not symmetrical.

[Fisherman]

I'm still trying to decide what beam to go with. If I go over 8.5', I will have permit issues when trailering. I am leaning towards 28' length. If I decide to go over 8.5 beam, I'll probably go up to 10' beam.

I basically have several options:

1. 28' long x 8.5' beam x 7.5' chine width
2. 28' long x 8.5' beam x 8.5 chine width (straight sides up to bow area)

3. 28' long x 10' beam x 8' chine width
4. 28' long x 10' beam x 9' or 9.5' chine width
5. 28' long x 10' beam x 10' chine width (straight sides)


Any comments or recommendations as to which should be my first choice for 8.5' beam and which should be my first choice for 10' beam?

[CTMD]

Realistically you're not going to want a vertical sided boat, it will end up looking like a oil can and is actually hard/impossible to build. The Pacifics look like nice boats it you're happy with their beam it would be a good place to start. No need to re-invent the wheel.

[Katoh]

Great Thread, being reading it with interest.
There was an article written quite a few years back in TBF(trailer boat fisherman) on this very subject, and they went into it in detail, I know I have that issue, and I will try to find it , makes for some interesting reading, mind you the expression's there are the same as expressed by others on this post.
It's interesting as the boat that I am rebuilding at present I believe to be designed exactly for this this purpose, I can not speak to much for the hull design but what leads me to this assumption is the upper layout, The cuddy cabin gives full protection to the people inside and the beamy-est part of the boat is at this point forward of midship then tapers back from there. The cabin to hardtop are all welded and reinforced and the windscreen is extremely small and and fitted with laminated glass. The gunnel's are not flat but have a raised section leading all the way to the stern, The deck sits 6' above water line with two huge open scuppers at the transom. When you put this altogether it basically points to a vessel that was designed to take breaking wave over the bow and minimise water entering the boat, and giving some safety to occupants.
Still I don't want to try it out, to test my theory!
Funny thing is you find most people in cats, get into trouble more than anyone else, not that cats are bad but the mind set of their skippers are some what, they beleive they are in a more stable boat and they can just plough through it, until they just roll them over like any other. The East coast of Oz has some of worst bars, and still many come to grief on them, my philosophy is If I'm in doubt I just don't go, or I launch from a better place, thats not so bad.

[dawgaholic]

Form fitting function and/or conditions expected. But after watching various bar crossing vids from around the World, Ima seeking a less life threatening place to launch like you Katoh!

Sorry but you have to learn seamanship skills to engage in such, common sense dictates it. But I also wouldn't be surprised at hearing of folks throwing caution (and themselves) into the maelstrom just as we have here in the States in far greater abundance.