Aluminum Panga ??

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kmorin
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Aluminum Panga ??

#1

Post by kmorin »

We've had some passing discussions of the panga hull form, and even proposed it being built in welded aluminum alloy as a good open ocean fishing skiff with outboard power. I'm not linking to those discussions, but the search function will reveal what we've talked about. The idea has intrigued me more than some other ideas for a while and I've taken the liberty of sketching what some of those hull elements COULD look like if they were built in the Miracle Metal.

To introduce these thread: this is a discussion of a hull form I've adapted to welded metal, feel free to suggest more of this, less of that, and whatever else you 'see' (beauty is in the eye of the beholder??) so that we can explore this hull form. I'm not selling plans, and AAB.com is not -through me- finding fault with this or any design or advocating anyone pay any attention to my opinion: which is all that is shown here.

About the images. I'm drawing in Delfship or modeling the hull form, then I export to SketchUP (*.dxf out; then in) and smooth the surfaces with tools there, sometimes things are faceted, that is- lines that should be curves are segmented or 'hogged' if the boat were real. That is because of the resolution I'm posting, these are not, of course, photo realistic images, they're sketches for the purpose of discussion among like minded metal boat people. If you find faults in the images, I'd be happy to try to explain them, but generally I'm trying to make images for discussion and not trying to provide a final polished hull model for building purposes.

Please don't confuse models and image files with boat plans. There are no plans, I don't sell plans, and AAB is not selling plans for these images. If you want a panga hull in metal please begin communications with one of the members or sponsors here who build full time, and working with them approach a design office able to do this level of work and see what is implied by this level of multi-surface complexity in welded aluminum.

Image

As usual with my online illustrations I've separated surfaces by color since "shades of gray" is what we get from aluminum surfaces in many images and that, as we all recognize, is the euphemism for vaguery and that is after all why I took time to make the sketches in the first place: to increase information exchange and avoid being vague! (:banghead: )

Here, some of the characteristics of this hull form are shown in a potential metal version. The very upswept bow, the topsides are divided into two different panels of at least two different angles to the waterline (flam). Where the upper panel toward the bow achieves an almost horizontal lean out to the bow would bury to a point but at that upper level along the bow stem the waterline will add 40 to 60% area in a few inches of immersion thereby almost assuring no load in this skiff could 'bury' the bow.

Now, if you have a fore deck, a cabin, or little to no load (non-commercial fishing) then you may not need this bow, but that is a panga feature.

Next is the very sharp and "pointy" forefoot, below the first chine flat, and last there's a flat bottom running aft at the centerline.

Image

Looking from under the hull you can see that I put chine flats along the entire hull between the various flat panels. This allows the panels to fit together but each transition works as a spray rail, a longitudinal stiffener and to facilitate the changes in the interface seam between the two panels. This is similar to the plastic hulls but is a building aid, as well as a performance aid in metal, where in plastic, all the goops go in the mold together so they don't need these flats as much.

red is the long triangular flat about which there is more malarky online than can be quoted. It won't make the hull perform any magic but it will allow it to beach without tipping over, which I think is why its there.

Each chine and plank upward is colored for clarity.

Image

Back to the bow, if you spend a few minutes thinking about how the waterlines grow as they are raised up this hull, meaning as the bow is immersed into a wave face or loaded with cargo/fish, then you can see why this is such a sea boat. There's almost no way to board a wave since the boat would pitch up by the bow farther and farther as it was immersed deeper and deeper. Note this will slow it down as the vector UP is canceling the vector FORWARD, but up is dry so I'd give up a little speed if I was 30 miles offshore.

Image

I've put a taller transom on this model compared to the warm water versions, but that's not needed just what I did in this series of sketches. Not an unattractive sheer in my eyes, and one of the reasons this boat is so pretty in my opinion, many builders of current metal boats seem not to value sheer, I find that a loss to their designs and builds.

I here all this nonsense online about working nets over this bow but think that is malarkey, I think nets would be worked over the low point of the waist and the bow is high to protect the net, the fishermen and the load while working in the low point? Just my take.

Image

A look 'under her skirts' so to speak. The flat in the centerline is flanked by decent deadrise and that increases to the bow. It was sort of a compromise to find a developable plate form that would result in this shape, but there are solutions. The bow has an optical 'illusion' that looks hollow but isn't!

Image

And a section to show the idea of the boxed gunwale that completely eliminates any need for transverse vertical framing, but there is no framing in the bottom shown either. This helps to see what I am suggesting is a way to solve the hull forms various characteristic surfaces in metal.

All remarks welcome, including anyone with enough experience with these hulls to help guide the proportions, this is somewhat wider than is normally seen in this hull type.

Some of my previous remarks about why this hull is not yet made in aluminum will probably show up here. There are lots more full length hull seams to cut, tack up /assemble and WELD! the cost for a same size hull will be roughly half again to double the 'five plate' boat designs.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#2

Post by Chaps »

Pangas are neat boats, fished one in Baja years ago, very rough glass version but seaworthy as anything I've been on. Thats a cool concept there Kevin, really like the ACB chamber take-off, yours are much more discreet thats for sure
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#3

Post by Sobie2 »

Kevin,

The aluminum panga has already been built and is is for sale in Haines, AK even.

http://juneau.craigslist.org/boa/4605458432.html

I know because I knew the original owner who had it built. I can't remember which, but it was built in either Petersburg or Wrangell (maybe it is a Svendsen). At any rate he sold it and it looks like the 2nd owner is selling it now.

Sobie2
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#4

Post by kmorin »

sobie, while that (linked) 5panel skiff's sheer is strongly upswept, the form in the picture, of course, is not a panga.

If you look at the original (world bank or UN /yamaha ) hull form the topsides strakes are always present, sometimes there are only two and sometimes more 'planks' to panga's topsides; but they always form a series of increased flam, the image linked is for a single planar topsides- one sheet. Also, the trailer skiff's bottom is not visible but there doesn't even seem to be a chine flat? The panga's traditional "box beam" at the sheer is not a pipe; on pangas anywhere they're shown online, there is a ring of flotation or box form for both stiffness and awash stability. This skiff in the link shows the same topsides extrusion we all put on open welded skiffs- regardless if put on in the round or in halves- not a panga feature.

I like the look of this strongly swept sheer on this open, 5 panel hull; it sure nice looking. And the conic bow form is very well blended but that skiff doesn't show any of the major panga hull forms;
Bottom 'dory shoe' or beaching plate running full length from forefoot to transom;
Wide chine flats repeated up the hull step changing displacement as the form's immersion is increase;
Planked topsides separated by chine flats- two or three from first chine to sheer;
Boxed in sheer full length, topped by wide guard deck or sheer clamp;

The skiff shown does have sharp forefoot, strongly swept sheer, but that's just a standard 5' panel build with nice lines- not a panga. Lots of panga articles online, lots of images of the cruder 3rd world versions as well as the super polished versions now built in plastic with full liners to market the hull form in the US sports market. To bad the current skiff linked doesn't have a nicer looking dog house to go with her overall nice lines.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#5

Post by ReelSong »

I think it would be a great project Kevin. Looks really cool
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#6

Post by kmorin »

We're in the summertime lull where everyone (but me) is on the water enjoying their boats so the Forum is kind of quiet. On the other hand perhaps there are a few readers who'd like to revisit this boat with me?

The panga is shown above, not in its 'true' form but in one that could be built in plate material with little or no forming beyond cut and tack. However, as we've reviewed a few times, the hull form as molded in plastic goops, is complex. There are lots of surfaces that are shown above and the edges between all have to be welded! That means to get the panga hull form (shown above) we'd need to double or maybe come close to triple the welding; compared to a 'standard' skiff hull form.

Would the performance be worth the effort?

I refer to the normal skiff as a 5panel skiff; two halves of the bottom plus two topsides, and one transom so 5panel skiff. Of course, I'm not counting chine flats, sheer clamps, framing, decks, and so on... I'm stopping the comparison at the main hull's panels; bottom, sides and transom because those are the main surfaces. So in my term 5panel I'm skipping the many other panels and planes of metal involved; to focus our discussion on the hull's primary surfaces.

That's where I came up with the panga's increased welding- with more surfaces to join, there are more edges to weld. The framing would be surprisingly similar to other skiffs of the same size and so would the transom work, finish of a deck or cabin, all closely parallel to other designs.

But, the sea keeping shape that has caused such a good reputation that pirates use these skiffs hundreds of miles off shore in the Indian Ocean (that's a very strong statement of boat shape success in my view?) seem to be worth exploring. I've kind of distilled that down to a few items to retain from the more complex panga to this simplfied one I'm presenting here.

Pangas have a flat bottom narrow planing strip that allows them to run in shallow water, still plane in the ocean and land (beach) upright on the shore... I've kept that feature.
Pangas have a very narrow, sharp entry and a wide chine flat to deflect water from the hull when the bow is buried... I've kept that feature.
Pangas have a very wide flam to the upper most topsides to further deflect water coming over the bow, to lift a load over a head sea and to create a full body forward.... and I've kept that feature too.

Pangas have two or sometimes three 'strakes' or 'planks in the topsides' but those have been dropped because I wanted to reduce welding and so there is only one reverse chine in this design sketch. (this is not a set of boat plans, it is a set of concept sketches only).
Pangas have an air chamber or floatation 'beam' at the sheer and that could be added - but I'm working on hull form first.
Pangas have other features that are not retained here as I'm trying to simplify the boat so welding fitting and labor time are somewhat reduced over copying the plastic models in metal directly panel for panel.

Image
Profile View outboard, the panels or hull surfaces are all colored differently to make them more visible, if they were all gray it would be hard to understand the images, it may be hard enough? without making the entire hull one color. I'm not sure how well the grid behind the boat will show up but its 20LOA in this side view.

Image
"Beam's My Buddie" I tend to design a little wider hull, the grid may not be visible at screen res but its about 8'10" wide at the top of the sheer about amidships. Plan view, looking down on the hull, the gold/mustard planing flat is in the middle, the 'bottom' is blue and the chine flats are "tan/brown"- topsides are blue and the sheer clamp or guard deck is purple/violet depending on how anyone's screen displays these images?

Image
Bow too image or Body Plan View, with shading making the shape a little bit less than obvious. In this image she sits on the Delta panel of the flat bottom, and the high rising chine (wide chine) shows how it would work to dry her out in a head sea.

Image
From the forward port quarter View, perspective and an image with lots of pixelation (jaggies) instead of clean edges. The chine's rise to make a strong 'stepped' transition from the sharp forefoot (blue) to the wide overhanging sides (green) is intended to get the panga's dry bow, strong lift in a head sea due to the change in waterplane at that level above the bottom and to deflect water off the hull.

Image
From the stern starboard quarter she's not that much different looking than any skiff with some hollow sheer lines (sadly lacking in too many skiffs in today's market :soap: ) Note: the underwater areas are colored gray in this series of images. No stern arrangement is even proposed, this is a hull discussion, and we may find a few more variations before we get to the details of engine, deck or even framing.

Image
From the top, off the port amidships noting the full topsides at the gunwale versus the narrow entry of the forefoot at the keel.

Image
Inverted from the after starboard quarter to see the delta planing surface and the stepped lower transom. This allows the stern to be squared off at the planing surface but to be curved in Plan View for the lower edge of a cylindrical transom. That shape would probably end up changes by inserting an outboard bracket or T bottom, or some provision for the engine and kicker.

If you're following the discussion at this point? You'd notice there's an attempt here to keep what seems to be the panga's main features that make her a good sea boat, but at the same time I've tried to simplify the more complicated, multi-surface panga into almost a 5panel skiff?

Not that I've succeeded, but its food for thought for those readers who have interest in the design process. If anyone has any design comments, please feel free to post them as this is an exercise in design not a boat - yet.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#7

Post by TXSHOCKWAVE »

I like the revised drawing of the "panga". The bottom looks like some of the NON ALLOY tunnel hulls down here on the Texas coast. I have been wanting to build a similar style hull out of aluminum with lower sides and a tunnel. I have built a few tunnel flats boats. If you decide to scale it to 20'-22'. I would like to see some dimensions.
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#8

Post by kmorin »

TXShockwave, as noted in the text of the concept model post, she's 20' LOA and 9' BOA at the sheer.

The boat can be scaled to whatever proportions using software; but must be viewed as untried since I've not built and run this concept model as plans. We can look at her and see she'll behave fairly reasonably due to the similarity to other shapes that she copies but making a determination if the extra hull seams are worth the effort to cut, fit and weld are another and unanswered topic!

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#9

Post by TXSHOCKWAVE »

The only thing that I see as being unnecessary is the curved transom.
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#10

Post by kmorin »

TxShockWave,

I agree the curved transom is not 'needed' in the sense that is a skiff has to have a curved transom. But... I like nicely rounded sterns. I have been putting a transition step in the bottom stern of skiffs for a while, the bent sheet is straight along its lower edge plane (a pure 'straight' transom about 4 - 8" tall) that allows the wake to release with minimal drag (as I understand planing shapes? and a place to mount trim tabs if they're used, and a means to transition to a curved transom that I like to see.

The curve begins on the horizontal surface's aft most edge so the transom is not actually curved on the planing surface, but is for both looks and for seakeeping above the at rest waterline. Here in this skiff, I've not shown any cut out for an engine mount or any aft mount provisions because this was intended to stimulate a conversation- and has been, up til your very welcomed remarks, a total and complete failure!

The look of skiff shapes with completely flat sheers, completely flat sides, completely flat transoms are all homelier than the might be; in my opinion. I like curves in boats, I like the curve of the bow topsides, I like a sheer with some curvature and I like to see some curve to the transom because; its a boat! not a corn combine!

I agree, and you are correct that the transom doesn't need to be curved, but as I've attempted to show, I did it for looks. Having built this shape more than a few times I'd argue the work wasn't enough more than a flat transom to worry about.

Butt... it all comes down to the fact that I like a nicely rounded stern.

Thanks for your remarks. Do you feel the extra topsides lengthwise/longitudinal seams would be worth the added work to get the shape's performance enhancements? ( I should say claimed performance enhancements?)

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#11

Post by TXSHOCKWAVE »

Your application and my application are totally different. Our boats need to be able to take off in 12"-14" and run in 6"-8" while on plane. So I don't need a curved transom what I need is a key slot that moves the pivot point of the hull forwad. In addition helps offset the displacement lost from the tunnel hull. Your boats in the Pacific Northwest have tall sides due to the seas you encounter. Our boats have low to no sides which are self bailing foam filled with non water absorbin block Styrofoam. We get out of our boats a wade shallow flats. So it's all in the intended use.

If you are asking about the original panga drawings no I think it is a waste of time. All of boats I have built my sides have a good bit of flare about 30* from vertical with a crimped spray rail or a welded one. With that much flare it knocks down the spray and in shallow water allows you to roll the boat on its side to load the tunnel to take off very shallow. On this hull for my application the sides coming up from the chine would only be 12".
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#12

Post by kmorin »

TxShockWave, I agree, this design isn't the best for shoals where the fisherman could walk around the boat. If I understand, the panga's history involves the WorldBank (or some entity like that??) conceiving the idea of an open sea fishing vessel designed for very inexpensive construction and pushed by a Yamaha (??) outboard. If I recall their design was to be sea going and not as you note for shallow coastal areas as much as deeper water net fishing.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#13

Post by Marcus Kjellsson »

Hi, Kevin, I´m new to this forum. I like to play with boat design and recently I have looked a lot into Pangas. Would you be interested in sharing your 3d files so I can play with them as well?
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#14

Post by kmorin »

Marcus, what file format are you looking for? I'll try to find the models and export to what you can use? can work direct if you'd like k.morin@kmmail.net

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: Aluminum Panga ??

#15

Post by kmorin »

Marcus,
I usually hull model in Delftship Pro, and export to SketchUP to use for display or illustration. In D'ship Pro there is a plate/panel/surface utility that shows areas of high strain/"un-developability" (areas that require more shaping than a flat surface without deformation) which is a color indicator. A highly red area on a green sheet indicates the model has areas of the sheet which will not/could not be formed from purely flat sheet.

These areas are intended to show the designer of the model where to work to 'flatten'; where to adjust the model so that it can be flattened into sheet goods and cut out.

It is important to note that I've NOT spent the hours to adjust each and every single 'hard spot' in these models. I'd hoped to have everyone reading REALIZE that I was not offering a finished set of surfaces, or assuring these panels will all develop outlines that are flat and when cut - will result in a clean hull.

My purpose was to foment a discussion among the readers of the site about this hull form... and as you might have reviewed the thread- I failed to get that discussion going on a design level!

So, as you might guess, these concept sketches are not at a level of refinement which could be changed/converted/exported into plans! They are "concept sketches" and the concept wasn't of much interest here, so it wasn't refined. They would require more than a bit of effort to clean up my surfaces and their intersections so the hull was fair AND wasn't compound. Then all the structural, joint planning and details not shown (decks, console, engine mounting, framing) would need to be planned in order to become a set of plans.

Making sure you realize that the hull models were an exercise in design meant to be an exploration, and are NOT ready to be produced into plans until the surfaces were refined enough to "develop" and the wt and balance and other steps are done?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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