Etching in video example

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kmorin
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Etching in video example

#1

Post by kmorin »

For any new builder, owner, buyer- this is what needs to happen after the metal work is done, and before any other work- including paint begins.

time stamp: 1:34 or there abouts to 2:05 this crew shows the rinsing of an entire boat acid etch. If your builder doesn't do this- then you need either A) a good explanation?? B) another builder (very likely) or C) to get his step done some how.... BEFORE paint, BEFORE rigging out and other steps. And... this should be done in the bilge as well.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Etching in video example

#2

Post by Chaps »

Don't see a link to the video in your post Kevin
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#3

Post by kmorin »

Thanks Chaps, sorry to be air headed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQwSjXlz0k8&t=772s

Hope this cut and paste works? Sorry for the inconvenience. Looks to me like a good full hull, all white metal etch, and very few streaks- they're shown rinsing in the video and the dilution of the acid etch solution renders the run-off nearly neutral ph.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Etching in video example

#4

Post by Chaps »

I've been developing a dry blast process that strips the mill scale and generates a sealed texture on bare alloy.
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I feel its advantage over acid wash is it peens the surface which closes up the pores in the metal which greatly reduces and evens out oxidation and it cuts down on staining and grime accumulation.
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This workboat's topsides, console and bottom got the peening process. The floatation collar recesses get conventional sandblast and epoxy barrier coat.
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IMG_5771.jpeg
IMG_5771.jpeg (88.89 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
1987 24' LaConner pilothouse workboat, 225 Suzuki
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kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#5

Post by kmorin »

Chaps,
sure does look like the genuine "white metal blast" and that's the key to aluminum's longevity in my experience.

Is the process proprietary? or it something you're willing to discuss and explain? looks like it would be worthwhile learning for any builder who wants to produce a quality boat?

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Etching in video example

#6

Post by Chaps »

Thanks Kevin, it is a white metal blast in a sense except that instead of leaving the surface profiled (or etched) as you would typically want for applying a coating the objective here was to leave a smooth, stripped surface that was ready for long term use as-is without further treatment. It's sort of proprietary in that I'm using an existing blast system in a new way and I haven't ironed out the method to my satisfaction yet so I'm not quite ready to discuss it in detail. The goal has been to come up with a surface treatment for new and old alloy boat topsides that looks good, is easy to maintain and eliminates the mill scale that entraps moisture and causes the flowering corrosion that quickly affects most relatively new boats. Secondarily, but very important, I wanted to develop a process that doesn't involve acid solutions or other chemicals and I didn't want it to require a bunch of manual labor to achieve the desired results such as power tool sanding and polishing.
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kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#7

Post by kmorin »

Chaps,
if your surfacing process gets refined to suit your expectations and you decide to "franchise the process"; pls keep me in mind for a dealership- at least until I get a chance to see if I could afford it!!! (?) Sure looks like a service that would be beneficial to all the welded aluminum in AK!

I'd like to be able to provide the service in our area, at the very least; I'm sure willing to explore your licensing fees and distribution cost model!!

Thanks for showing this image, when it catches on... aluminum boats will take on the "white look" of the countless plastique yachts !~!!

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Etching in video example

#8

Post by Chaps »

OK, duly noted Kevin. Next chance I get to set the system up I'm going to apply the treatment to the sides of my old LaConner to see how it will clean up a crusty, oxidized and beat up "mature" hull.
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Re: Etching in video example

#9

Post by hatcher »

Hey guys I'm new to the forum. From Monroe, WA. Read a lot of posts about paint, mill scale, corrosion and the virtues of acid etching so appreciate the above post. Chaps too bad you aren't ready for prime time. I'm your potential ideal customer. I have a 22' Alumaweld Intruder from 2005. My paint is chipped, scratched and bubbled in some places now and I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. Repainting seems like a total pain and I like the idea of bare Aluminum. I need new canvas and now seems like a good time to get it done before getting new canvas.

There is a guy in Portland who sands and polishes Aluminum boats and he is happy to sand the whole thing down to clean metal if I take everything off (windows, snaps etc...).

What do you guys think of the following:

1. Is leaving it unpainted doable for a boat like this that came fully painted and may have filler in places etc..?
2. If I have all the paint sanded off and they get it down to clean metal is acid etching still necessary or advised as a secondary step if I want to leave it unpainted?
3. I have some pitting corrosion (explanation below) on the gunnels so is leaving that bare aluminum an option or should I repair and paint as a protective measure? If I do this I'll likely paint from the gunnels up so gunnels/windshield matches and then leave the sides bare - maybe vinyl wrap them.

I'm second owner and the boat came with Diamond plate pieces that are riveted to the gunnels from the bow to 3/4 down towards the stern. Some of that was to hide previously drilled holes under the diamond plate. A couple of years ago I had to pull the diamond plate pieces off the gunnels that are up on the bow area and there was some corrosion happening underneath (nothing too crazy but enough to leave some 1/16th" deep pitting). There in lies my issue. Do I get rid of the diamond plate pieces, find someone to weld the holes shut, have the whole thing sanded, fill in the crevice corrosion on the gunnels with epoxy filler and paint from the gunnels up?
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Re: Etching in video example

#10

Post by gandrfab »

This is going to be great, with pictures.
kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#11

Post by kmorin »

hatcher,
Welcome to the AAB.com Forum, glad you've found topics that may help your boat.
hatcher wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:14 pm 1. Is leaving it unpainted doable for a boat like this that came fully painted and may have filler in places etc..?
As you noted there may be cosmetic issues regarding the metal under the paint. But it is doable. Again,as you already realize, you do have the option of having any holes filled by welding closed OR if necessary, cutting out some corroded material and welding in a patch. As a welder myself, I tend to find welding is the answer or my preferred method- but "if the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail".

But the boat will be fine w/o paint either sanded or etched and left to the elements- countless commercial boats are this way and a good number of other welded boats are stripped of mill scale by mechanical means or chemical and are just fine. May not meet everyone's esthetic ideas but will last fine.
hatcher wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:14 pm 2. If I have all the paint sanded off and they get it down to clean metal is acid etching still necessary or advised as a secondary step if I want to leave it unpainted?
To directly answer your question NO, it not necessary to use acid after a boat is buffed/sanded/mechanically cleaned up. Though it may be desirable unless your mechanical cleaning looks as nice and uniform as you'd like it to look? Random pure rotary sander patterns look kind of hit and miss; but the same sanding job with random orbital looks much more uniform. However the point is that the mill scale and surface corrosion, crud and contaminants are all gone- so the acid isn't critical. Might make a more uniform coloration if used in high concentration and applied bottom up w/ spraying.
hatcher wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:14 pm 3. I have some pitting corrosion (explanation below) on the gunnels so is leaving that bare aluminum an option or should I repair and paint as a protective measure? If I do this I'll likely paint from the gunnels up so gunnels/windshield matches and then leave the sides bare - maybe vinyl wrap them.
If the gunwale extrusion or rub rail is pitted from drilling or even crevice corrosion from an un-drained metal to metal joint? then filling the holes and repairing the sites with welding would seem like you'd end up with a more uniform surface? Same is true for snap screw holes- filling them with a TIG torch is pretty fast (best if drilled out slightly) and clean up well with sander or 3M Scotchbrite (tm) buffing pads. Again, I don't think paint is required as a surface treatment for aluminum to last- in fact if not done well (read; expensively !)paint c a n actually hasten pitting and deterioration. I built a bunch of net skiffs in the 70's and 80's and were etched with few exceptions- not painted. They're all fine and have smooth corrosion free surfaces except where someone added a bolted on piece of wood or something over the years.

I have little personal experience with paint strips or wrapping of metal boats. I've seen a few of both that had problems showing up within a year of installing? Since I don't know much about the wrap for longevity I won't try to surmise? One nice thing is the great graphics that can be put on the sides of boats using the large format vinyl printers, but if the surface wasn't prepped well? I've seem some bubbled wraps that hadn't been on long. Maybe those installers just weren't up to par?

I'd get rid of the tread plate on the gunwale, weld fill all the holes and any corrosion sites and sand back to fair and leave the entire boat bare metal.

Maybe (on the plus side) Chaps will fire up his blasting system and help you get a long lasting white metal surface? Lots closer than Portland! Chaps is at https://agatepassmarine.business.site/ From your house, you could take the Edmonds/Kingston Ferry and drive down to Bainbridge IS. and you're there. That is if the Ferry is still running?

A couple years ago I helped on a remodel of a 24' boat that had gone through four owners. Each one had drilled holes for electronics, fishing gear on the gunwales, different rag top framing bases, different seating pedestals, some long gone lockers that strapped to the deck framing, and misc other hardware. We drilled out more than 150 holes of differing sizes ranging from screws and bolts up to ducts and bilge fans. Then we TIG welded them all closed, including adding patches as big as the palm of your hand. Then sanded the entire boat fair, and then drilled new holes for the current owner's new hardware and he had the entire boat painted by an autobody paint shop. Looked pretty clean when it was done- but was a couple days work to clean out- weld out - sand back and remount all that hardware!!

Anyway, those are my views on repairs and refurbishing your Alumaweld.

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#12

Post by hatcher »

:thumbsup: love it. I'd be interested if Chaps is. Chaps still too soon or is your process where you want it to be?

I'm happy to leave it bare aluminum.

I need to decide about the inside of the boat. The helm is white paint on the inside around the windshield, steering wheel, passenger side dash storage, and walls of step through to go out front so I think I'll sand that off so that I don't have one glaring white painted section and nothing else. Will skip the acid wash there for sure if I do it on the outside to even up the color since it would be really hard to keep the acid out of where I don't want it.

However on the acid wash and evening up color part I'm expecting it to stain and be not consistent color over time so not sure if it's worth it if the sanding takes care of the mill scale / corrosion issues.

The zolatone on the sides is in decent shape and is close enough to aluminum that it doesn't look bad when scratched or the aluminum shows through. I've got locking zolatone painted doors on the rod holders with 9' hinges, locking zolatone painted doors by the engine with painted hinges too and then carpet on the inside of the shelves so it would be a lot of detail to sand all that out. I don't think it hurts to leave it since I'm willing to sand off any bubbled up spots on the inside if moisture ends up getting trapped under the zolatone and let the aluminum peak through if needed. It just doesn't bother me. Splashwell is all zolatone too so think I'll leave that alone as well. I guess if it looks real bad after I sand the paint off I could follow up with round two later.
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Re: Etching in video example

#13

Post by Chaps »

Hunter, yeah, cosmetic rehabbing of boats like yours is where I'm going with this idea & process. If you could email me photos of the areas on your boat that need attention it would help me determine if my system (at its current level of refinement) might be suited to improving some of those issues. agatepassmarine@gmail.com
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Re: Etching in video example

#14

Post by hatcher »

Just shot you over some pictures via email.
kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#15

Post by kmorin »

hatcher,
any chance of posting them (the pictures of the boat's current condition) here so we could all follow the discussion and understand visually the scope of work?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
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Re: Etching in video example

#16

Post by Chaps »

Hatcher, thanks for the pics. It appears that your issues primarily require paint removal which I can surely do with traditional sand blasting but the outcome of that process would result in an abraded profile on the underlying metal that realistically would then need to be repainted, it would be too rough in my opinion to simply leave bare.

The blast process that I'm developing is designed to strip mill scale off of new bare aluminum boats as well as the removal of scratches, grind marks, surface corrosion, blotchy oxidation and other ugly stuff seen on older in-service bare alloy boats with the goal of leaving a smooth, bright, unblemished appearance on the blasted bare sections of the boat that will look good and weather well without any other coatings applied. It isn't a polishing process and it wouldn't be efficient at removing paint or vinyl wraps. It will nicely restore the beat-up bare hull sides of a typical welded NW recreational fishing boat or an entire typically unpainted work boat (like the LaConner in my sig pic).

Since your boat looks to be 100% painted with additional issues like corrosion, peeling, riveted panels, etc. along with the glass, attached gear, accessories, controls, etc. I'd say a high end rehab would require a variety of restoration processes similar to what a car resto would require including a lot of disassembly work. I could sandblast all the paint and corrosion off easily enough but the boat would need to be stripped of everything that is removable beforehand and then when we are finished you would need to get it into a spray paint shop somewhere for paint coatings then put it all back together.

I'm sure you have no intent to do all that considering the time and expense involved and to be honest your boat still looks pretty darn good. The thing with painted aluminum boats is they really look terrific when new but they are hard to keep looking that way if they are used for the kinds of activities that people buy them for!
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Re: Etching in video example

#17

Post by hatcher »

Thanks Chaps. Appreciate the consideration. I think I'll go the sanding / polishing route.

@Kevin defintely can throw some pictures up but as a noobie here I'm not seeing an option to upload. What's the best way to share pictures - is there an option to upload / attach or do I have to share via links?
kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#18

Post by kmorin »

hatcher, there a couple of ways to post images. One method is used to link to a picture storage site. As soon as you hit 'reply' and get the text dialog box there will be a series of icons above (top row in pop up window) one of which shows an icon with "a mountain and the sun" in the icon. If you hit that button then the text [ img ] .... [ /img ] strings will be added to your post. I separated the two strings so they'd appear as text and you could see them. IF these strings are entered into your text (post) they will display an image or simply show the word Image but it will be lowered below the text line= Image

Then put the url address of your photo/image link in between these strings w/o spacing so the the beginning would be [img]url..... no space between the closed ] symbol and your link address. The Board Software will treat that as instruction to display the image that is located at the address. You could open your photo storage site locate the picture and then copy the address, then when the two strings appear- paste the url between them.

Also, at the bottom of the 'post a reply' pop-up window , are two blue tabs one is "Options" the other is "Attachments". When you select Attachments there's a nested button for Add Files, and that will allow you to search your drive for the location of the images you'd like to post.

The two methods don't work in the text of a post exactly the same... but with a few tries I'm sure you'll find which is more helpful to get your images displayed?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK
kmorin
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Re: Etching in video example

#19

Post by kmorin »

I'm bumping this thread to include some images that I may have already posted? but not sure?  I haven't found where I posted these pics but they couldn't hurt to be in this thread anyway.

Image

This image is of the forward topsides of well recognized production (brand) boat, V bottom 22' or 24' outboard powered hull with a color stripe just below the rub rail and extending to the middle of the topside about 14-16" above the chine and waterline.  The lower part of the topsides appears to have been etched- AFTER the topsides stripe was etched? OR the topsides color patch was taped off after the etch and painted on top?  Regardless the order of application; it appears the paint was put on the plate with the Mill Scale intact!!

I inferred, but can't confirm, since the paint very slightly overlaps downward that the procedure was to tape off the color strip upper topsides, then etch, then remove tape and tape the lower edge of the paint strip( with a skirt) and apply the paint directly over un-etched aluminum- that is; the Mill Scale is in tact?  You might draw a different conclusion?

Image

Just a zoomed in view to begin discussing the 'evidence' for well etched hull.  Notice that the paint has lifted over a significant area? and that not all that area has corrosion shown by the white chalky areas - but that the corrosion shows a clear -path- or connection to the edge of the etched areas and clear line of tape edge where the mill scale begins and ends? 

I infer that the corrosion that lifted the paint happened where the edge of the mill scale could be reached by water and form a corrosion cell that then was able to continue under the paint due to lack of 'drying' out or the reaction of the mill scale lifting the paint's adhesion to the mill scale.  The main cell in the middle has more lifted paint at the top, while the two smaller cells for and aft haven't extended vertically- yet. However, this is an illustration of how leaving mill scale on the boat - combined with paint systems on top of that mill scale can lead to a real mess- redone paint job, re-working the entire surface finish.

Image
At the far right hand side of the image above- it seems to me the paint line is actually below the etch line ? Or the paint was taped off last at the dotted/etched/cut line shown just below the upper edge of the etched area?  So this implies the paint only had a tiny thin line of etched material to adhere to and seal water out from under the painted but un-etched area?

I don't know the paint system, I don't know if it was 'factory' or aftermarket?  I don't know what solution was used to remove the mill scale from the lower topsides or more than I've mentioned about the boat's build and finish.  I'm illustrating the corrosion beneath paint and surface prep consequences of various practices.

That one area is etched and the other left mill scale in tact- is my conclusion looking at the surface colors and consistency of the two areas shown in the images.

Hope this might help others understand my impression of leaving mill scale on a welded aluminum boat?  The creation of crevice corrosion cells happens when a thin film of water is able to shift ph toward acid, by losing its oxygen to the metal's oxide formation; and begin a cycle of overcoming the aluminum oxide film- "robbing the oxygen back". That cycle is renewed on each wetting of the surface where capillary action allows more water into the confined volume.  However, left free of coatings, including factory mill scale, aluminum's naturally forming oxide is very resilient and durable- it just doesn't look like paint or shiny chrome!

cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK


 
 
 
 
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